The Dangers of Christian Perfectionism

If your faith sometimes feels like a constant test you keep failing, you’re not alone and you’re not broken. Today we get painfully honest about Christian perfectionism and religious performance, that quiet pressure to pray more, serve more, confess better, and stay “good enough” so God won’t pull away. I unpack how that mindset can sneak in even when we genuinely love Jesus, and how it can turn spiritual growth into a frantic attempt to earn approval.

We explore what the research on attachment to God suggests: anxious attachment tends to increase distress, while secure attachment supports well-being. Along the way, I connect the dots between childhood patterns of rupture and repair and the way we read God’s heart now. When perfectionism runs the show, we can start interpreting setbacks as punishment, feeling rejected after failure, and carrying the exhausting belief that we are never enough. That cycle often shows up as anxiety, shame, and burnout, especially for people who are overextended in visible church activity while quietly neglecting prayer, rest, and the “greater things” at home.

Then we pivot to a different way forward: moving from performance to presence. I share practical practices like honest conversational prayer, learning to rest through Sabbath, simplifying commitments, and using spiritually sensitive mindfulness to reduce shame and build resilience. You’ll leave with questions to help you spot where you feel you must earn God’s love, and small experiments to help you stay emotionally present with Him even when you do less.

If this helps, subscribe, share it with a friend who feels worn out, and leave a review so more people can find the show. What part of perfectionism do you recognize most in your own faith?

Transcript

Welcome And Core Question

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Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast, a podcast that teaches you how your attachment style influences how you relate to yourself, to others, and most importantly to God. I'm Dr. Sam Landa. Thank you so much for tuning in. Alright guys, well today we'll be discussing Christian perfectionism, or also known as religious performance in Christian circles. We'll explore what it looks like, why it shows up, and how it can quietly turn our faith into performance instead of relationship. We'll explore how anxious attachment to God can fuel the need to earn approval and how perfectionism affects mental health and what it looks like to move toward being present with God. Thanks again for tuning in. Hope you enjoy the show. All right, everyone. Well, we have this great topic that we're discussing today. It's kind of a follow-up to the one from last week. And I'm excited because this is a topic that I haven't really covered, you know, the idea of being a perfectionist in our faith. Personally, I wouldn't consider myself a perfectionist. I know a lot of people who have their own Christian walks, and one of the things that they look at is the feeling like a constant failure because they don't measure up to the perfection that the Lord calls us to. And there's some misunderstanding what that actually means for those of us who are in Christian faith. So that's what we're going to explore today, and we'll talk about how attachment plays a role in that. So the research on attachment to God suggests that an insecure attachment, especially for the anxiously attached, is linked with more distress, while more secure attachment is associated with greater well-being. So this obviously on the surface makes a lot of sense. If I am anxious about my faith, I'm obviously going to experience more distress. If I'm secure in my faith, then I'm going to feel calmer and have a healthier perspective on my personal walk

What Christian Perfectionism Sounds Like

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with Christ. So first we'll discuss what this actually looks like. So point number one, I think I'm going to try to do this in a way where you guys can kind of see the outline. I'll go through points. I've been actually listening to a couple of audiobooks, and I really like how they laid that out. And I have seen that since that model in the audiobooks is that they go point by point. I'm able to record it a lot better. So hopefully that's beneficial for you guys as well. So, what does spiritual perfection look like? It sounds like if I pray more, if I serve more, if I confess better, if I get my act together, then God will be pleased with me, right? So what you see in someone who has a performative approach to their faith is that they're doing these things in order for them to be seen by God in a better light, or for God to be pleased with them, right? And we see this growing up when you did something wrong, right? And your parents are maybe a little bit upset at you, and they still, you can kind of tell that they're still upset about what you did, and you're walking around the house, and there's this tension there, right? And you're trying to address that in how you relate to them. You're asking them how their day is, and trying to see if they want to spend time with you, like little little attempts that we make at repairing that rupture with our parents. And eventually they get over it and we feel like, okay, time has passed and they seem to be acting a little bit differently for um with me. So maybe they've forgotten about it. Maybe now they've actually forgiven me, right? But God is not like that. God, when we ask for forgiveness and we seek him out in that, we he naturally establishes that reconnection with him, right? The Holy Spirit talked about this last week, draws us in, makes us aware of our sin. We uh confess and repent of our sin and we turn back to God and we feel like there's this established relationship now. But if when you grew up that wasn't the case with your parents, it's hard to see yourself in that same way in your relationship with God. So we need multiple examples of that where there was a rupture, there was repair, and then there was a securely attached relationship after that. So again, for the person who is a perfectionist, not just in their studies, maybe in their relationships, but also in their faith, in their walk with Christ, it's gonna look like this. Where if I do more things and if I do them better, and if I do them very well, God's gonna be pleased with me. He's gonna love me more, he's going to accept me, he's gonna be blessed me more, right? There's this misconception that we have that if we do all of these things right, that essentially we'll be blessed more. And if you do things wrong, then you'll be punished for those things, right? And um I'm thinking about what it was like growing up in that type of uh culture or mentality where if you did something wrong, God's gonna punish you. You you'll eventually reap the consequences of your sin, which is true, right? We see this in Galatians. So we see this going on, and we in our faith, in our walk with Christ, when we do something wrong, we naturally feel this, oh no, God's gonna punish me because I really messed up. And when we don't see that happen, um, we feel, oh, okay, guess God didn't punish me. So is that his grace working in that moment, or is it something else, or did he not think that it was wrong? Whatever the case is, right? We start interpreting the world around us through that type of lens. The relationship that we have with our parents is the lens that we use in our relationship with God. So if our parents didn't punish us for things when they said that they would, we kind of transfer that over to a relationship with God, where, okay, God says he's gonna punish us. Um, you know, he will reap the consequences of our sin. But I don't really see anything

How Family Patterns Shape God Images

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in the immediate future or nothing happened at this moment, right? Maybe it's a delayed punishment, but I'm not gonna worry about it because it didn't happen right now, right? This is the mentality that gets developed from those who have this type of experience with their parents growing up. Now, if you had parents who were very on top of punishing you when you did something wrong, then that's an easy transition for you to believe that, man, I did something wrong, God's gonna punish me. And then you start looking at every inconvenience, every the moment of distress, every potential concern that you have, highlighted in such a way that it makes you think this is this is why how God is punishing me. You know, oh, you know, I really wanted to go to that thing and I can't go anymore. You know, that God's probably punished me for that thing that I did. Or I was on my way to work, or I was on my way to some big event, and my I got a flat tire, right? This is God's way of punishing me. The girl or guy that I like, they stopped liking me. This is God's way of punishing me because I don't deserve that, right? So that there's these different ways in which we start to interpret the world around us based on how we perform in our Christian walk. Now, underneath all of this, the reason why we're moved to want to perform in our relationship with Christ is for three specific fears. One is the fear of failure, the other one is the fear of rejection, and the other one, or the last one, is the fear of not being enough, right? All of us want to do well. Like if you are a genuine Christian, someone who loves Jesus, reads his word, wants to do well, loves others, um, is in consistent Christian community, like we want to do well. Like, no one goes into the Christian life and says, you know what, I want to be the worst Christian ever, right? We don't think that way, right? So we want to do things well. And in that process, there is this fear that what if what if I do something really bad that disqualifies me from being a Christian? And this goes into a whole conversation about can Christians lose their salvation? My belief is that they do not, and I think it's supported by the Bible that you do not lose your salvation. Uh, once you receive Christ, you are endowed with the Holy Spirit and therefore are um belong to the Lord and you're adopted as his child, right? But when we fail, depending again on our upbringing, when we fail, we feel because there's a distance between us and God, that maybe that means that we're not saved anymore. And it doesn't mean that. It means that there's a rupture in the relationship that needs to be repaired, right? And that's where repentance, confession, and repentance comes into play. But we fear failure, so that puts us in a performative mood. And there's also the fear of rejection. Well, I don't want to be rejected by God, so in order to not be rejected by God, I'm gonna do whatever he says. But if I fall short, then that's gonna equate to him rejecting me. He doesn't want to be around me. And this is one of those lies that Satan uses where when you do something wrong, that God wants nothing to do with you, so we pull away and we distance ourselves from God. Again, going back to Genesis 3, that's exactly what happened with Adam and Eve. Right? So there's this fear of being rejected. And, you know, Satan can really lean into that message and say, God wants nothing to do with you, right? In fact, he rejects you for being so um evil and wrong in what you did. Okay. And then there's the fear of not being enough. Like no matter what I do, it's never gonna be enough to earn the favor and love of God. It's just there's just not enough that I can do, right? So we eventually get tired from doing everything that your faith becomes weakened because everything that you're doing feels like I'm trying to earn something that's unattainable. At least that's what we think. And you get tired and worn out in your walk with Christ. Right. So those are the three fears that I see happening for those who kind of have this perfectionistic approach to their walk with Christ. Now, God calls us to be perfect, right? It says, be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect. So there's this desire that we want to do things well, but for those who have a perfectionistic mind to mean that there's no room for error. And that's not true in outside of their faith, right? They've failed tests, or they haven't got a hundred on all of their on all of their quizzes and grades and exams. Uh, they've failed in their relationships, right? But they desire to be the best that they can as a student, as someone who, you know, boyfriend, girlfriend, as a husband, wife, and even as a Christian, right? So there's moments of fear. So we understand that for some reason, for the one who has this mindset and approach, they feel like if they fail, here's the three things that could happen. I could, uh, well, obviously I'm gonna fail, I could be rejected, or I'm just not good enough. So that creeps into that mindset and affects obviously how we walk with Christ. When people live under constant pressure to be spiritually flawless, they often carry higher anxiety, shame, and burnout. This is what I was referring to earlier. Is that when there's that constant drive and need to impress or to do more, you're eventually gonna burn out because that's not what Jesus is looking for. He's looking to connect with our hearts. And these are things that can draw us closer to him, serving in the church, being in constant prayer, being in fellowship, Christian fellowship. Like these are things that can move us towards Jesus. And what happens is that when we feel that we're not doing it right, or when we feel that we're just not doing it in an exact way, that that means or that equates to Jesus not wanting anything to do with us. Okay. So we can see how this can lead to higher anxiety, shame, and burnout. So, what does this look like in mental health? Well, point number two, how does perfectionism affect mental health? We see that they're closely connected. People who are driven by rigid internal standards are more vulnerable to depression, anxiety, and emotional exhaustion. Now, notice there's a couple of similar elements here, specifically

Three Fears Driving Spiritual Performance

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anxiety, and then there's this emotional exhaustion, right? And in the Christian walk, it's this idea of I'm just tired of constantly doing, right? The person who is involved in a lot of things, I honestly, at least the way they view it today, I honestly feel concerned and worried about them. Because it's not to say that they are doing those things to seek approval from God necessarily, but it can affect them in becoming spiritually or emotionally exhausted in their faith. So I do worry about that. I think it's important to serve. And you want to serve in the areas where you know you feel God has called you, maybe he's given you strengths and skills and abilities that are fit for a certain position within the church, right? Somewhere where you can serve. So you want to use those talents that God has given you. But for the person who is involved in everything, I do see that as a potential barrier to closeness with God because it also moves you away from your time with the Lord personally, like in your own Bible study, in your own prayer time, in your time with your family, right? I've seen in most cases when someone is involved in everything, they're neglecting something that's more important. So growing up in the church, um, it was heavily emphasized to us to be give everything, give all of yourself to the Lord. And that is still something that I think is good. I think it's the concept or the principle of giving your life to the Lord. I think that's the principle, right? The question is, what does that look like? And what I found was that people were giving themselves fully to activity, to doing a lot of things in the church as their service to the Lord, but they were neglecting neglecting greater things. For example, someone who was involved in ushering and maybe teaching, in uh children's ministry, whatever the case is, when they're involved in so many things, they were so tired after all of that that now they didn't have energy to spend time with their children. Or now they didn't have energy to spend time in the Word of God, or now they were just so tired that they couldn't, they don't want to pray, or their prayers are very weak, and whatever the case is, right? So all of that service, that performance led to deficits in other areas of their lives. So I worry today for those who are overly invested in the visible activities or ways of service. I'm really more interested, and as is the Lord, interested in what's your heart posture towards him. Are you too tired to connect with him after you did all of those things? Right? The person who has this perfectionistic mindset who wants to do everything well, they want to succeed in each of these areas. And maybe they do it all well for a limited amount of time. Maybe they do it well for a month, maybe two months, maybe three. But at some point, they start to falter in any of those other areas. They start to weaken, they start to become exhausted in those other areas. So it's an important factor for you to consider. So if you're listening, and this is you, the person who is overly invested or highly involved in all aspects of the church. I just want you to take a moment to evaluate. Are you neglect neglecting greater things? Things that are more beneficial for your walk with Christ than these other things that are performative. Why are you doing all of these things? What is that doing for you? Um, these are important things to look out for in spiritual settings that can become even more complicated. This idea of having these elevated standards, sometimes unrealistic standards, right? Because the person may believe that their worth depends on how well they're doing in their faith life, and it creates a relentless internal pressure that they never really reach. You never reach it. So you're in this constant state of striving that eventually leads to emotional spiritual exhaustion. Studies have found that attachment and security, especially for the anxious attachment to God, is linked with greater psychological distress. And as I mentioned, secure attachment tends to protect the well-being. So, more broadly stated, shame-based religious religious coping can intensify symptoms rather than relieve them. So if someone believes or feels that they have to perform spiritually to stay connected with God, their mental health often pays the price. So this then leads to point number three, which is about how does my attachment pattern affect my performance, right? If you're secure, you want to serve God and you want to do well, and you don't feel disconnected from him if you're not able to meet something or to do something that he would like. For example, let's say that one Sunday you're a consistent churchgoer. You go every Sunday, every Wednesday, and one day you get sick, and you feel guilty when you couldn't go to church because you're sick. And you feel like, oh, you know, I can't believe I could tough this out. This was actually, this happened to me a lot when I was growing up,

Anxiety Shame And Burnout In Faith

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um, where I would feel guilty when I would miss church. There was a season as a teenager when, you know, I still kind of look back at this and have do have some shame about it. Um, and I've told my dad or my mom about this as well. Um, but there were times as a teenager where if I knew there was a big game on that I wanted to watch, and it was during the time that we were at church on Sunday morning, sometimes I would fake sick and I would stay home. And it's interesting because when I look back at that, I experienced both emotions. I was happy that I was watching the game. And at the very same time, I felt so guilty and so shameful that I can't believe that I chose this over going to church. Like, what kind of a Christian am I if that's my choice? That's how I was thinking. Even at that time, as a 12, 13-year-old who was doing that, that's how I felt about it. And then what happened is the Lord obviously convicted me of that. And I stopped doing that. But and I remember how freeing even that was to not stay home because there was something else that I wanted to enjoy. Like I wanted to be in church, I wanted to enjoy uh my time at church, being close to God, and I did feel close to God. And if I was involved in something even more, right? Like if I knew I was gonna be serving as an usher and I couldn't be there, I felt guilty because I wasn't there for that, right? So I felt good that I was serving, I felt good that I chose something that was better for my spiritual uh well-being for my Christian walk with Christ, and it was good, right? It was good. So, what I'm saying by that is that the shame often tends to dictate what we do or don't do as we get older. So, for example, if I got sick today and it was a Sunday and I had to miss church, I don't feel like I'm disconnected from God because I could still be thinking about Him and even praying to Him during that time, or I don't feel like God uh hates me for that or doesn't want anything to do with me because I missed that day of church. Now it's not a constant practice, but I'm giving an example that before I used to even feel guilty, even if I was sick, that I would miss church when my body just wasn't ready and I had the potential to get other people sick. So it just wouldn't be a wise thing to do. And there was this mentality of if you don't do these things, then there's gonna be some form of punishment in return. So that's how a lot of shame can dictate what you do or don't do, or even how you view yourself. A common theme or conversation that may be had is if I miss up, I might lose God's love. If I don't keep up with my spiritual practices, I'll drift away or be punished. And that that was a very common experience too. Like if I don't do these things, then I'm gonna drift away, right? When you've established a pattern of serving the Lord in many areas of your life, but this one thing that you miss that's gonna completely make you drift away. And I do remember having people or knowing people who thought that way, who thought that way. And I'm saying, well, you've established a pattern of serving the Lord in such a way where how is that all that going to be lost in you missing this one one uh moment or one time? Um so I don't want to normalize that you should shouldn't feel shame about not going to church. I think there is a little bit there that just kind of it's convicting, depending on what our motives were. If we're missing churches because, you know, oh, we're tired of it, or I don't really want to go anymore, or you know, I'm just gonna take a break this time. I I do think that the the spirit does convict us in that. Um and it's one of the ways in which the Lord is just trying to remind us like, hey, we need to stay connected, right? Stay connected. Don't make this a practice. And I have seen people, especially those who go through a season of deconstruction, they'll, and when I say deconstruction, people who are having serious doubts about their faith and they're questioning everything. And they want to let everything go. So they stop going to church and think to themselves if I can just process all of my thoughts and all of my beliefs about faith, I'll eventually arrive at the at the right place. And what you find is because they made it a practice to stop going to church and stop reading their Bible and stop being in Christian community, is that that actually does distance their heart and makes even hardens their heart towards the Lord. So that's an important thing to be mindful of as well. On the other hand, a secure attachment sounds more like trust. For example, kind of what I was alluding to earlier. I can be honest, imperfect, and still remain loved. I can be honest, imperfect, and still remain loved. When something difficult happens in my life, I can be honest about how I feel about it. And there are times where I know that I'm not going to not going to do well and be imperfect. And I know that I'm not going to lose the Lord's love in that. Because the pattern is that there's a rupture that may happen, and then there's also a repair. There's the confession, restoration of the relationship between me and the Lord. And that's what it should be for Christians, right? This idea of if there's something that happens that limits or disrupts my connection with the Lord in my prayer life, in my reading of his word, in my Christian community, then I'm going to try to find ways to reestablish that connection, right? That's prompted by the Holy Spirit. Okay. Point number four, practices to shift from performance to presence. So essentially, what we want to do as believers is not the performance things, like I need to do these things in order to be loved. Or if I don't do these things, I'm going to be pushed away, rejected, shamed, whatever the case is. But we're trying to move into this presence space and in knowing and being present with the Lord. You know, I think in the last two years, I've really appreciated the importance of prayer. Like prayer is so, so

Guilt About Church And Drifting Fears

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important. The way that we converse with God is so important, so critical to our Christian walk. And I think growing up, it was the emphasis was placed more on Bible reading, and I think that's obviously important, is to know scripture, to know who God is, to know God's heart, to know what He, how He views us, to know the work that He's doing in our lives, like to know these things about Him. Like that shapes how we think about Him, how we think about our relationship with Him, right? But after that, there also needs to be this seeking relationship and conversation with Him, where I'm explaining or sharing my heart with Him, and I can feel His presence in that moment. That's really what we're moving towards. That I could share with Him that when I was overextending myself in service to the church or to Him, that Lord, I'm feeling tired. Like this is this is a lot. Like, is this how it's supposed to be? I don't know, Lord. Like, help me understand this aspect of why do I feel so guilty when I don't do these things? Or why do I feel like my pastor or this leader or my parents are disappointed in me because I because I didn't I had this mistake when um at school or in this relationship? Why do I feel like everyone's looking at me differently? Right? What is that? And so this this prayer life of asking God these questions, of wanting to understand why I was seeing the world the way that I was seeing it, was very important because then the Lord can clear my heart, clear my mind to try to see it from his perspective. And that was really important to me. Like I didn't appreciate prayer as much when I was younger, but when I went through a season of suffering, it was a very difficult experience in my life. It was, it was, it was the only thing I had, right? I was remembered of, and I mentioned this before on the podcast, of a Peter moment, right? The Peter moment was when all the people who were following Jesus for the miracles and for his teachings and everything, they arrived at this point and they started to turn away from him because he was not gonna do any more miracles at the time. So people started to leave. And Jesus turns over to his disciples and he and he says, Um, well, are you guys gonna leave me too? And Peter turns to him and says, Lord, you have the words of eternal life. Where else are we gonna go? Right? Where else would we go? And that's kind of how it felt for me is that in every moment that I had that was the most difficult experience of my life, and I would say maybe three or four experiences I can think of right now, where that was so real. Like it was so it would have been so easy for me to just say, Lord, you know what? You're you're not faithful. Like this, why is this even happening? Why did you allow this to happen? I feel like I've been doing well, I feel like I've been serving you, I feel like I've been doing everything right, and this is how things turn out. It's not supposed to be this way. And I can see how that can be a conversation that I could have had with the Lord. And initially it was actually, Lord, all of this is my fault. I can't believe that I let this happen. I can't believe that this, I can't believe that that, or you know, why am I being treated like this by all these other people, you know, growing up? Why do I feel so much shame? All these different things, right? And those things could push us away from the Lord if we don't have a genuine relationship with him. But I remember when I was going through those things, I was like, Lord, I'm sorry, how can I do better? What do I need to do? And I remember feeling the Lord's presence in my mind, in my heart, um, and saying, just be here. Cry out to me, pray to me, be here, seek me, and you will find me. And that was very powerful to experience. And again, like I said, prayer became such a huge part of my life, specifically in the last, you know, three, four years. It just became a constant thing. Like throughout the day, at night, before I'm going to sleep, like it was just this constant communication with God. So I feel close to him. And I would ask him for mentors, I would ask him for other friends, for other people, and he provided all of that. So there was all these different ways in which he was uh getting me to connect with him, and it was powerful and memorable. So all of these things are a result of that communication that I had with God, of that prayer life that I had with him. So he uses these different situations in our life to bring us closer to him.

unknown 28:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So, how do we move from performance to presence? And one of the things, and I haven't gotten this down well enough, but I know some people who do this very well, is practicing the Sabbath, having a day of rest, right? Where you are sitting, resting, thinking about the week, thinking about God, and thinking about the blessing, like this attitude of gratefulness. Another thing that can be done is not trying to impress God with all of the things that you're doing. I would say pick one or two things and do those things well, and do them in your service to the Lord, right? Uh, I think it's Colossians that says, and whatever you do, do with all your heart as it is to the Lord. So, whatever that is that you're doing, do it as unto the Lord and do the best that you can. And if you have that, then you start kind of prioritizing, seeing, okay, what is the greater thing, right? What is the greater thing? And then seek to do that.

Shifting From Performance To Presence

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Don't miss out on the greater things because you're so focused on doing more things or a lot of things. Again, having too much on your plate can make you lose focus of what's actually important for you to do. Kind of like a meal, right? You can't have a snack, you can't have all this other stuff, all these different things on your plate. Like we have a buffet in Vegas, and you could pick, it's called there's this buffet called around the world. So you have all these different choices, and you have pizza, you have chicken, you have mashed potatoes, you have um uh lasagna, you have all these different things, right? Uh noodles, whatever the case is. And you take that plate, you fill it all up because you everything looks great. And then when you take it to your table, you only finish the things that you like and you don't get to finish everything. So I think in a lot of ways, when you're doing so much, it could kind of be like that. Like you leave so much or the good things on the plate and you fill it up with all those things that you don't really get to enjoy all of it. So it's better that you choose less and do those things well, and you can also focus on the more important things. So, one of the things that the research shows is that this mindfulness approach, research has shown that spiritually sensitive mindfulness practices can reduce shame, depression, and anxiety while increasing resilience, right? The this idea of slowing down, becoming present in the moment, not thinking about the future, not thinking about the past, being present in the moment and acknowledging how God is being present with you in that moment. The present nature of God in prayer, in reading his word in Christian community is extremely powerful. So I would say dive into that, and you will see a huge change in your life. And just so you can have some takeaways from this episode, I think one thing that you can do is ask yourself, when do I feel like I have to earn God's love or attention? And what you can pay attention to is, well, where are you at? Notice the setting, notice the emotion, and what is also triggering you as you think about those things. I hate using the word triggering, that's especially in a Christian context, but anything that elevates your stress levels, okay? Anything is that anything that is stressful as you think about um when you feel like you have to earn God's attention. Okay. Is it when you fail? Is it when you compare yourself to others? Is it when you feel spiritually dry? But that awareness, if you're able to answer as you answer that question, that awareness can help reveal where perfectionism is operating beneath the surface. Okay. Then try a small experience and do an experiment and doing less spiritually while staying emotionally present. Again, this focus on your emotions can tell you a lot about the things that you're doing and if how they're what the motivations behind them are. So focus

Practical Takeaways And Closing Request

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a lot on that, and then the thoughts obviously will tell you something about that as well. So as you move through the rest of your week, pay attention to where your heart turns performance into identity, right? You are not the things that you do, but the things that you do can contribute to your walk with Christ or limit and impact how you walk your out your faith. So hopefully this was a helpful episode for you. Thank you for tuning in. Again, I really appreciate your support. And if you can leave me a review, um, that's very helpful in getting the word across to other platforms and to other people who can tune in to the to the podcast. And I actually also like to hear from you guys to see how the uh how the podcast is impacting your life. So, guys, thanks again for tuning in. I will see you next week. Have a good one, guys.