Rebuilding Trust After Betrayal w/ Joanna and Matthew Raabsmith

A secret doesn’t stay small for long. When one partner is hiding pornography use or sexual addiction, the damage shows up everywhere: emotional distance, confusion, defensiveness, and that aching sense that you’re married to someone you can’t fully reach. We wanted to name that reality clearly and still hold out real hope, so we invited Matthew and Joanna Raabsmith to share their story of betrayal, disclosure, and the long road back to connection.

Matthew and Joanna talk candidly about what kept them stuck for years, what finally brought the truth into the open, and why the betrayed partner often feels a storm of anger, fear, grief, relief, and even hope at the same time. We dig into betrayal trauma, why “just trust me” doesn’t work, and how recovery has to include more than willpower. They explain the concrete supports that helped them rebuild, including weekly therapy, 12-step community, and the kind of honesty that doesn’t depend on getting a good reaction.

We also unpack their practical framework for rebuilding intimacy, what they call the intimacy pyramid: honesty first, then safety, then trust, then vulnerability, then intimacy. You’ll hear why reliability and predictability matter so much, how everyday conflict becomes a chance to practice rupture and repair, and why the goal can’t be forcing your partner to trust you again, it has to be becoming genuinely trustworthy. We close with small daily habits that compound into real change, plus resources from the Rab Smith Team, including their book Building True Intimacy and a free couple check-in.

If this helped, subscribe, share it with someone who needs hope, and leave a review so more couples can find tools for healing and secure attachment.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Marriage Matters

0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm excited that you're here. Um, as you guys have noticed in the last number of weeks and episodes, I've been doing a lot of interviews and seeing how kind of attachment is playing out in you know everyday life in different situations. And today I'm very blessed to have Matthew and Joanna Rhabsmith sharing their story of how to move back to get to the path back to trust and connection. So they'll share their story. We'll talk about a little um a couple of different um topics and themes within that. And uh yeah, I think as we'll be blessed by this uh this conversation. And Matt and Joanna, thanks for being here today. Thanks so much for having us. We're glad to be here. Yeah, we're really looking forward to the conversation. Yeah, and I want to say that it just hit me right now. This is the first couple interview that I've done. Hey, right. Glad to be the first. Yeah, yes. If we get into an argument, we'll be in good hands. We'll have to snavigate through. Yeah, absolutely. And uh so yes, I'm really excited about that as well, and also just learning from your story. You know, this is one of the one of the uh topics that um I have a heart for. You know, I really um uh suffer a lot in seeing families break apart. I mean it's something that's been a part of my history with family growing up and and even as an adult. And I just appreciate the work that you're just doing trying to keep families together and recovering after something like what she's gonna share today. But um, yeah, so just so the audience gets to know you guys, uh, I like to know more about you

Faith Backgrounds And Early Callings

1:48

guys. Can you guys share a little bit about your backgrounds just in the visual, like how you grew up, like background um uh like Baptist, Presbyterian, like what's your religious background and also just your your uh where you are today. Perfect. Right. Um, so I grew up going to church pretty regularly. I grew up in a denomination called Christian Church Disciples of Christ. And my parents were we were kind of every week Christians and and pretty active in the church, but faith wasn't necessarily um something that we discussed or we lived or talked about. Like I remember we had a Bible, I don't ever remember seeing it opened. It was like just at the house kind of thing. And and so it was it felt more kind of cultural to me growing up in the South. Like everyone was Christian and and I and I was also a Christian. And so that was really kind of my background, really up until the time around high school. I actually I went to a private high school that was Christian, and there were people who believed different things than me. And so that was the first time I had to kind of wrestle with what is it that I actually believe. I I had just always thought that everyone was a Christian, everyone believes the same things, they do the same things. And when I finally encountered people who believe something different, it really pushed me to try to explore my faith. And that's really when my faith came alive and I think really became a part of who I was and really a part of my mission and calling. Yeah. And I grew up in uh pretty much a Baptist church. As I got older, we started going to kind of non-denominational evangelical churches, um, but very um spiritual family. Both my parents were Christians, and faith was very much incorporated into our life as a family. Um, I remember I think we were in church like four or five times a week, it felt like sometimes. Um, and so it was very much a part of shaping who I was growing up. And I always felt from pretty early on a call to do some kind of ministry with my life. I really didn't know what that would look like though. I originally thought it was gonna look like international human justice law, and so I actually started law school before we met and got married, and so um pursued kind of a few different paths, but God used our story to really shape the ministry that we're in now. Yeah. No, I I'm always interested to see how backgrounds and how we grew up, how that kind of draws people together, right? And I guess that's that's a good place to

Meeting Fast And Marrying Faster

4:15

also start. You know, before we get to the difficult part, I mean, how did you guys meet? So you met in school. What was that like? Yeah, we actually met through Joanna's older brother. I was a pastor at the time, and and Joanna would come in town and visit, and we got to kind of meet. And, you know, over the period of over a period of time, we got to kind of know each other. We got to realize that we had a lot of the same shared values. We, you know, I was really um attracted and impressed by her faith and just how seriously she she considered her relationship with God and how it was kind of shaping what she was doing. And so we kind of started this whirlwind relationship. We went on four dates before we got engaged. Um, not the recommended number, but that's what worked for us. And then we were, we were married just two months after that. So within four months total, we were we went from dating to married, and and a lot of it had to do with this really belief that God was calling us together and that God was calling us to do something with marriages. We felt really passionate about marriage. And one of the things we thought was really funny was how sour the disposition in on marriage the church kind of was. There was a lot around the people we were at that was like, oh, the old ball and chain, and you know, this is this is the end of your life and the end of your fun as soon as you get married. And we're like, this is supposed to be wonderful. Like we love each other, we love being around each other. How could this go sour? Yeah. And so we had a really deep sense of it wanting to be a work in which God did through us, and we weren't quite sure what that was gonna look like. We also had no idea how to have a happy marriage. We we knew we wanted one, but you know, and Joanna had had a great example, but neither of us really had marriage training. It was it was kind of like you get married and you figure it out, and so we got married and we didn't figure it out, and it was really hard. And pretty quickly into our relationship, we realized we needed more tools. We needed to learn about how healthy relationships functioned. And so we're actually in seminary together when we took a class at the seminary originally called Strong Marriages, Successful Ministries. And so the idea was the healthier your relationship, the probably the healthier your ministry will be together. And so, in the course of that course, we learned the foundations of restoration therapy, which is what we now use with the clients we work with, but it radically changed our relationship, radically changed how we understood healthy relationships and just how emotions impact the way we show up with each other in positive and negative ways. And so that was really exciting. But there was still a piece missing.

The Distance Nobody Could Explain

7:00

And so, even though we had done all this work, we had seen some big changes, there was still something that was keeping us stuck from who we really wanted to be, from who we both said we wanted to be relationally and the type of relationship we wanted, that closeness, that intimacy, that secure attachment, right? But but every time I would lean in, it would feel like Matthew would pull away and I could not understand why. Yeah. And what Joanna didn't know was that I had been carrying my whole life and including into our relationship a secret sexual addiction that had started actually fairly young, um, being exposed to pornography, being exposed to kind of a very highly sexualized culture. Like I said, I didn't really grow up in a moral home around sex. It was just more like we're Christian. And so um I had really learned to live two lives, one that was public-facing and one that was private. And my private life I kept private from everyone, including Joanna. And and so that that reality of the of this sexual infidelity as well as this lies and this betrayal that I was perpetrating in our relationship was was the thing. And it really just continued to deteriorate the our ability to feel close. And and we were about three years in our relationship where I started to kind of really understand like this has to stop. But I was terrified because I was like, if she finds out, if I tell her, if I confess, like, won't our relationship end, won't my life end, my ministry, everything I've wanted to do will come crashing down. And so I just continued to hide it, but also just become more and more desperate. And I remember praying to God, God, if you will just, if there is a path forward out of this, I'll take it. But you've got to show me what it is. You've got to let me see. And that really led us to this amazing moment in our journey. So, because of the transformation we had seen, I decided to go back to school, get another master's degree, and do the MFT degree. And about two weeks into my first class called Shame and Guilt, the first class of my MFT degree, a pastor was actually there sharing his testimony of coming out of sex addiction, what recovery looked like for him, healing, sobriety, what restoration of his relationship looked like. And as he's talking, as he's sharing, my gut is telling me this is it. The thing that you didn't know what was keeping you guys stuck, this is the thing that is keeping you stuck. And so I just I knew immediately. And as he's sharing, I'm writing down every resource he mentions, every step he took to find freedom. And I went home that day and I shared with Matthew what I heard in the class, and I asked him point blank, is are you engaged in a sexual addiction? Is this what is keeping us stuck in our marriage? And and like I said, for so many years I'd lied. I'd I lied when she asked, I lied when anybody asked. I always did whatever I could to kind of change the subject or hide. But I would come to the questions, Matt, that they were asking. Because it's, I mean, it's usually comes up whether you know you're will sharing, absolutely. Yeah. So I mean, Joanna asked kind of early on in our relationship, like, hey, I wondered, right? I kind of at the back of my head, I was like, well, this would answer some of the questions I had. And so I would ask him, Is are are you struggling with this? Is this getting in the way of our intimacy? And I was really good at deflecting. I would say things like that was my past, because I would acknowledge, oh yes, I I did that in my past, but I don't do that anymore. So that was one of the lies that I learned. Or I learned to kind of change the subject. Sometimes I would, I would turn it on Joanna. I would get really defensive and angry, and I would say, Well, you're not perfect, and I don't think it we need to be pointing the finger at me, right? I would learn all these tricks to keep her away from the truth. And and the hard part was is I didn't realize that I was also keeping me from ever feeling true connection because these lies were were really reinforcing the fact that I this belief that I would always be alone because I because if anyone ever found out, they would leave me. And so God and his good grace, I think it really put me in this place where I'd come to the end of myself. I was like, I just can't do it anymore. And when she was telling this story, it was like God was like, Here's your path. You you asked for a path, I'm gonna give you one. And so out of my mouth, when she said, Are you dealing

The Question That Changed Everything

11:23

with this? I said, Yes. And I remember being terrified because it was like, How did that slip out? That's not what I say. I lie here and we move on. And she looked at me and she handed me the piece of paper with all the resources on it, and she's like, This is the healing journey we're gonna go on. Um, and we got right to work. And I'd love to say two weeks later, everything was great, and we were back to amazing. And it was a it was definitely a wandering journey. We felt like Israel in the desert for for a long time, trying to navigate healing and restoring, and that's a lot of why we do what we do, because we really want couples to know not only that you can move beyond something like this, you can find true healing, but you can also find a really amazing marriage afterwards. And so that's that's really kind of why we do what we do today. Yeah. Yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that, Matt. Um, Joanna, on your end, yeah, were there, you know, one thing that I see often is that women will often feel guilty or shame for not catching it or for not seeing it early, or they see signs, but they're like, I didn't really pay attention to it. Did you experience any of that during that time? Absolutely, yeah. I think right there was I kind of mentioned in the back of my head, I I would sometimes think, well, this would answer the questions I have, or this this feels like it could be the missing puzzle piece. But I think there was a part of me that was terrified if he says yes, I don't know what that means. I don't know anything about sex addiction, I don't know anything about healing from it. Can you actually be sober? Right? Like I didn't know what that would mean for a relationship. And so I think part of me was scared to even get the real answer. So I think that's why maybe I didn't push when he would deflect or when he would lie. I would just kind of trust him, believe him. I I stopped trusting my gut and what my gut was telling me, and I trusted him. And so certainly when the truth came out, there was a a piece of wishing I had been more assertive, wishing I had kind of demanded more honesty up front. There's also a piece of relief and validation, though, as well. Because I I knew, oh, my gut was telling the truth, my gut was sensing something was off, right? And so there was a lot of things. That seems to be the case oftentimes in in couples that there's a gut feeling about something being off, both for one and also for the other person. Absolutely, yeah. Now, Matt, I know you mentioned there's there's this piece where you know I had I just lied and deflected and that kind of um took care of it for the moment, right? Can you share, you know, for the men out there who are who are in that process, like what are those steps or attitudes that keep one stuck in in that pattern of lying? Usually it's people involved in ministry or they're in some leadership position. And you're right, there is that fear of if people find out, I won't be uh legitimized in my position, right? My position won't be respected. So I have to show people that what I'm practicing and what I believe works, and that I'm not struggling, right? Because there's also that stigma around, well, Christians shouldn't struggle. Like you have the answers, why are you struggling, type of thing, right? Yeah. So tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, and I was I was in pastoral ministry for 15 years again, and a lot of this was going on at the same time, and this was part of this double life, and it uh my addiction really kind of lived off of two lies. One of the lies I would tell myself was it's not a big deal. Everybody does it, it's it's it's not it's a victimless crime, right? This isn't about anybody else, it's just my thing, and it's not that bad. I would tell myself that as a way of not wanting to actually deal with my conscience because the Holy Spirit was trying to convict me and trying to say, hey, this isn't this isn't life for you. But I would use that lie to deflect, or I would use that other lie that my life will be over, I will have no future, there is no redemption, there is there is not there is nothing but death after this. And and those really kept me in that cycle of of of shame. And a lot of times I would, I would just kind of ping pong back and forth between shame and and performance. I would, I would kind of beat myself up for acting out, and then I would I would try to be the perfect guy. I'm I'm gonna be the perfect husband this week. I'm gonna be the perfect student. I'm you know, we were in seminary, I'm gonna make all A's on, you know, nothing but a hundreds in my Greek class, I would tell myself, and that'll mean that I'm good. But one mistake would really unravel things, and I would, I would fall back into that pit. And and I was, and it was really difficult because it was, I was so isolated, because I wasn't talking to anybody about it, because I wasn't being honest, even with myself, even the the death that I was experiencing, I was I was kind of saying, it's it's fine. Every couple struggles, you know, we've we've gotten so far. And and what's really sad is how much life I was robbing from our relationship, from Joanna and from myself. And that's really the tough part of coming out of addiction is sometimes the grief of realizing all the life that I I lost in those years. And I am so thankful for my recovery now because the life I get to live. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's often stated that the antidote to addiction is connection. And you know, I mean, you both have kind of pointed that out is that I was robbing the other person of true intimacy, or I felt robbed of true intimacy and getting to know the other person. Um yeah, I mean, once you found out you talked about, you know, we found out and you know, we started our journey.

Betrayal Trauma And Emotional Whiplash

17:09

So what was the journey like uh emotionally? You know, what were the thoughts that were going through your head? Um what was that like? Yeah, it's a little bit terrifying for me because it was like this huge bomb dropped into my life that shattered everything I thought I knew. And so what I didn't realize at the time was I had experienced, we call it now betrayal trauma. Yeah, that term was pretty new on the scene. This is over a decade ago when we went through this. Um, and so it wasn't so I didn't really know for a long time what I was going through, what the chaos was, how to how to understand all the different range of emotions that I was having. I think I mentioned right in that even that very first moment of disclosure, I felt anger, fear, relief, hope, like all of these things all at once. And that kind of continued for a while, right? I think there was the anger around the betrayal, anger that someone who said they love me could hurt me so much. There was relief that, okay, I can trust my gut, that I finally know what's actually happening in our relationship. There's hope that finally, now that it's out in the open, maybe we can build something real. And there was grief over all of the lies that I had believed and not knowing like who is this person I'm married to? I don't actually know him. What is the relationship we have? Was any of it real? Was all of it a facade? And so all of wrestling with all of those things wasn't easy. And it took months, it took years to really fully process through and heal from all of that. And so definitely once I started to understand about betrayal trauma, understand about what that kind of healing path looks like, it was so helpful. But right, but there's kind of that individual healing piece we each had, and then a relational healing piece. Yeah.

Full Disclosure Therapy And 12-Step

19:01

And and for me, it was a little bit like the scales kind of falling from my eyes. I once the truth came out, we really, you know, it was it was kind of like, hey, you know, Joanna looked at me and was like, what are you gonna do? Um, what are you gonna do about this? And luckily, I kind of had some initial steps laid out for me. And so it was like, I'm gonna do the initial steps. I'm I'm gonna trust the person who's gone before. And so one of the first things I did is I went to a weekend intensive that allowed me to really dive deep into my story. It really helped me to connect the dots. Now, like Joanna mentioned, we had done some work around kind of emotions and the way they work and what and what they do. And so that really helped because it resonated with a lot of that work and helped me put the pieces together. But but most of all, it helped me to feel uh seen and and accepted in love. Because one of the things that we did at that intensive is we shared really our full story, we call it full disclosure. And so I was open with those men for the first time that I'd ever been open with anyone, with things that I had swore. I'm gonna take all of these things to my grave. And it was sharing that and seeing them turn to me and say, We see God in you. We see what a good man you are, we see, we see God's light in you. Their response to my story really reminded me of my worth and my value and what God really had been seeing in me all along. And that that really turned the corner for me because it it really made me realize I'm actually not alone. I'm I'm I'm surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. And the more that I turn to them, the more that they will show up. And so we came home. I did that same full disclosure with Joanna. I gave her the opportunity to know everything and to make a dish and make a choice, right? To make a choice on whether she wanted to move forward or not. And I'm very blessed that she did. She said, okay, knowing it all, I'm still gonna move forward. And then we really started to hit those rhythms of recovery. And for me, it was meeting with a counselor every week, continuing to dive into my story, into the things that had happened to me, but also the ways that I had chosen to kind of live out that life and those things. And then additionally to that, getting in a group, um, 12-step groups and recovery groups were so important for me. That community of people who got me, you know, who were always there to say, Hey, good to see you, glad you're here. That was a really, really important piece because at the time in our life, it was hard to share this with other people. We didn't know how people would react. Some people might pull away, some people might get really upset with it. And so we were very it's a very isolating experience. And so having those communities for us was really, really key early on in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Um I know the Lord's done a lot of work in that, and I can't imagine what it felt like for both of you to kind of have that level of exposure. Um, and then the work, right? You could see the mountain ahead and then think, can we actually, you know, can the Lord actually walk us through this and just have that kind of shock factor, right? Oh, yeah.

The Intimacy Pyramid For Rebuilding

22:11

Um, I know safety was probably a big part of you guys building, rebuilding um your marriage. Would you guys say that it lands on one person more than the other? Or how is this a mutual effort, right? Because usually the way that maybe culture sees it is whoever did the offense, they got to do the work, they got to show me that they're willing to change, right? That's kind of that perspective. Yeah, is that is that the way that it kind of played out, or was it like a mutual effort of creating safety for both, right? Because Matt would have to feel safe in sharing more, and you would have to feel safe in knowing that he's being honest and wanting to rebuild. What was that, like Rigas? Yeah, it's really interesting. And one of the reasons we developed our framework is because we get this question a lot like, how does this work? And what we know is that the pieces of a healthy relationship are always the same. And and what we've really seen in our work is they kind of they they fall out a little bit like Maslov's hierarchy of needs, if you can imagine that kind of triangle. And and we do the same thing when we talk about rebuilding intimacy. Yeah, the foundation is honesty because that's really the most harmful thing that I took from the relationship. I took the honesty that Joanna was giving, and I didn't reciprocate for it with honesty. So instead of it being like, hey, I'm the only person that has to be honest now, it was more about I'm going to put the honesty in that I had taken away. And so I was really leading the way and building the honesty of our relationship, which meant I had to learn how to get honest with myself. I had lied to myself for so long. I had lived in these lies. And so part of that was what was really helpful about the 12-step communities. They, you, they kind of require you to be honest and to be radically honest and then to translate into our relationship. On top of honesty, that's where we get safety. And so it was helpful for me to understand that my honesty wasn't going to be dependent on the relationship experience. I was going to be, I was going to choose to be honest no matter what. And then that would give us the chance to create a safe relationship, which would look like early on me showing that I'm not leaving the relationship anymore. And that was really the work I had to do is I had to demonstrate to Joanna, when it gets tough, I'm going to stick in because what she had had for me was when it gets tough, I'm out, right? I'm I'm I'm leaving. And so the opportunity that I had to rebuild safety was that, hey, we're going to push through the hard things, which meant Joanna being able to share her emotional experience. That's true. What it had meant for her, the impact that it had started to have for her. And and it's building that honesty and safety that allows you to get to that next level of trust. And that, and that is where the couple starts to feel a little more balanced again. That's when things start to feel like, ah, yeah, we're we're a team the way we were designed to be a team. Yeah. And after that trust, that's when you get to both lean into vulnerability, right? Once it the relationship is basically demonstrated, honesty, safety, trust. Now we can lean in, we can drop those walls, we can be vulnerable. Again, usually with the betraying spouse leading the way in that. Because for most relationships, the spouse who was betrayed, they were showing up vulnerably. They didn't have walls up. They were putting that into the relationship, but it wasn't being reciprocated. And so to continue demonstrating trustworthiness, that betraying spouse leads the way in vulnerability, demonstrates that they are truly willing to be vulnerable now as they create this brand new relationship and invites the partner into that space with them. And as both people start to do that consistently, that's when you get to that intimacy that is what most couples are wanting. Yeah. Yeah. Jonah, what should the thought process be for the um the betrayed partner when they're first seeing these initial changes? Because I'm guessing after so many lies, the belief could be like this is this is only going to be temporary, this is not going to be ongoing. Um is is it is it walking forward like very cautiously? Are are they taking notes of the different behaviors, the changes, and so on? Right? What's that process like? Absolutely. Yeah. So

Reliability Boundaries And Slow Trust

26:34

one of the pieces in safety that we talk a lot about is reliability, which is this idea of predictability. Can I count on these behaviors, these new behaviors? Is this going to be the new norm or is it going to be chaotic in terms of what I get? If it's chaotic, that will feel unsafe. And the Gottmans have done some research, and you need about 90% predictability to feel safe in a relationship. And so as these changes start to happen, right? Change is slow. It doesn't happen right away. So they may be, they may be 20% predictable, right? And then 50% and then 60%. And then, and so just normalizing, even for both of them, that the felt sense in your body will not be safety until it gets to 90% reliability of those new behaviors. But that doesn't mean to not notice the changes, right? And so it's really important to notice the changes, say, yes, we're moving in the right direction. Let's keep moving in that direction so we can get to that 90%. And so it's this openness, and it's kind of the same thing with trust, allowing trust to build slowly and incrementally as more and more time goes on, that reliability is demonstrated. Trust isn't all or nothing, it's not 100% or 0%. And so letting it grow slowly, noticing I talk a lot about openness. Are you open that this could be new, that this could really be a changed behavior, a new person showing up in this relationship, a new relationship that you are building together without moving into your own form of denial and fantasy that forgets the reality of where you've come from and forgets the reality of what the change process, the messiness of the change process and boundaries and safety that may still be needed. Like there has to be a sense of hope that it could get better, even just the glimmer of hope. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, would you would you say I think one of the things that I heard there too was that when I saw the changes, I let Matt know that I was noticing the changes. Or was it just more personal, right? Because I think I could see how from one side it could be like, okay, I'm making these changes, but it's not being acknowledged, or I don't know if it is. So am I doing the right thing? Right. So is that something you guys made? I mean, you guys have talked about clear, open communication. Yeah, assuming that's what happened. Absolutely. Yeah, it was kind of a bit of a mix. So there were some changes that I would name and I would say, hey, I noticed that and it matters, and that helps me feel more safe. There's other changes that I didn't even realize till much later how significantly that change had impacted me. And so one of the things as we went on in our recovery journey, it wasn't right away, but I started to realize when he led the way in creating boundaries around safety, that felt so much more safe than when I had to initiate the conversation around a certain boundary. And so that was a huge shift. And I didn't notice it right away, but it was after a pattern of him starting to do this more and more. And I could feel it in my body, just like this sense of relief, or I get to let go of this like hyper-vigilance around my own safety, because I finally have a partner in that safety. I finally have an equal partner who can see the safety issues that I can see as well. And so, right, so some of those kinds of things. And then, and then there was other times where I very intentionally did not um affirm changes.

Why Chasing Trust Backfires

30:18

I remember the first time he brought, I think was it cupcake. Yeah, he brought he brought home uh yeah, yeah. So, so one of the things when you when when somebody gets a a year in a sobriety, they they bring cupcakes and we all get cupcakes. And so in my 12-step group. And so, right, and so I came home with this cupcake and I was like, I got a cupcake from my 12-step group, right? And this great, I've I've been sober, you know, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, give me my credit. And she kind of was like, Where's my cupcake? I was like, that cupcake belongs to me. Thank you very much. And then you should have been sober all along. That's what I thought I was marrying, right? And so this really only signifies a year of the deepest trauma I've ever experienced in my life, is what that right. So, no, I'm not gonna congratulate you for that. Yes, am I glad you're going to group? Am I glad you're sober? Absolutely. Am I glad that we have to celebrate that? No, that's not a celebration for me. That's a deep, deep pain and a and a grief for me. And it really points to something we see couples get stuck on a lot in this process is you know, the goal is restoring trust. But when the goal becomes being trusted from the from the partner who betrayed, everything shuts down. That's a great thing. Because what they're what they're really doing is they're they're telling the partner, I need you to do something for me so I feel okay. I need you to trust me so I feel trustworthy. Instead of saying, and I, and this is what I'm working with guys all the time, your goal is to be trustworthy, to be a person who is worthy of trust. The trust will come. And so one of the things that can that can happen is that betraying spouse can be looking to their partner, going, Am I better? Are you over it? Are we done now? And and that was something I would do with Joanna. If she would talk about the pain, right? The pain of even my victory. You know, if I had a year of sobriety and she was like, it hurts just to know you didn't have this in the beginning of our relationship, I would sometimes get defensive. I would want to be like, hey, I'm better. You need to move on from this. And those were all my own internal insecurities showing up in the relationship, putting this pressure and these demands on her that really would short circuit her healing process. And that's really what we see happen is that as all this pressure gets put on being trusted, the relationship doesn't go anywhere. It kind of stagnates. And then the couple start to feel really frustrated because they feel like we're doing all this work, but we're not actually getting the fruit from any of the labor. Yeah. Yeah.

Rupture Repair And Daily Conflict Skills

32:52

Well, I mean, it it this is so helpful for people who are wanting to rebuild trust. One of the things that I talk about with attachment is, you know, people say, well, it's it's healthy for you to have arguments, to have you know those moments of conflict. Um and an attachment we call the rupture repair. So you have ruptures in the relationship. And the key to that is how do we repair, right? Yes. And if you have enough evidences of, okay, we had a rupture, but we also repaired, then that creates more safety in the in the in the relationship. What are the ruptures that keep happening afterwards, right? I mean, because people who are working through this, their million dollar question is, how long is it gonna take before we feel safe again, right? Yeah, so what does that look like? Like what are the what do the arguments become afterwards? And then what does the resolution look like? Hey, I'm sorry for what I said, like what does that look like? Yeah, I think along the way, the ruptures will look a lot like what they normally look like. You know, we were still living a normal couple and we had we had bills to pay. Uh, we had we were, you know, Joanna was in grad school, I was working. Um, we were we were both in we were both in therapy, so we had finance, we were paying for this stuff. And so some of the same conversations were coming up. What was really interesting is those conversations were opportunities for rebuilding trust. Because, like I said, what Joanna had gotten used to was me when when we were having struggles financially, scheduling, reality. You know, we were living in LA. We were, we were poor and trying to make it work, right? There was tension. And so Joanna was used to getting me pulling away. These conversations were actually opportunities that were being put in front of me to say, no, this my recovery is working because I can have these conversations now. I can do that repair work. I can I can mess up, I can get defensive, I can get frustrated, I might even walk out of the room. But will I walk back and will I own my stuff? Will I say, hey, that's not who I know I'm capable of being, and I know we can have this conversation. What's amazing is it's some of those conversations that actually build as much trust as the sobriety, right? As the work around the actual betrayal. Yes, yeah. You have the overt, right, violation of the betrayal and kind of this giant rupture that you're working through. But you still have the normal couple, we call them pain cycles that happen on a day-to-day basis, where you get emotionally triggered, you show up in unhealthy ways with each other, you hurt the other person, which means they respond in unhealthy ways and hurt you, right? Like we still have those. And so learning how, first of all, to be aware of when you're in that space, being empowered to regulate yourself when you get dysregulated, so you can start to show up from a healthier, more grounded place, own and repair any damage that you caused in the relationship during that dysregulation, and then learn how to reconnect as a couple after the repair. And having a having a structure for a repair process can be so helpful for couples. Because again, a lot of us, we weren't taught this. Our parents, we were taught it in school. Like, here's what you do when you get into conflict to make sure you keep that secure attachment, right? Well, I wasn't taught that. And so figuring out, okay, what does it look like to actually regulate repair and reconnect? So those ruptures are opportunities for building more safety, for building more trust with each other, because they absolutely can be. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, as we're having this conversation, there's one relationship that we haven't covered, right? Is

Faith Lament And Finding God Again

36:40

the individual one that you have with God, right? So you have this stuff going on, and then you have questions in your own faith potentially of Lord, why is this happening? I don't most couples, most people don't want to hurt the other person, but they're doing those things, right? And that's part of the confusion. Lord, if I'm a believer, why am I still struggling with this? Why is this still an issue? Why is it hard for me to forgive? Why is it hard for me to move forward? Like all these different things. So, what was going on for each of you individually in your faith? It was it was a really interesting time because I think um it it was a really mixed experience for me. Um part of doing recovery means looking at the things you've never looked at, including the things that were done to you that never should have been done. I I realized that I had experienced way more abuse, especially emotionally, verbally as a child. I had been had been bullied, and and because I grew up in the 80s, I thought that's just what happens to everyone. And luckily, some really good therapists were able to tell me, no, that's not what's supposed to happen. That's not the way it's supposed to be. And so there was some deep sadness and feeling kind of left alone by God, right? Kind of unprotected. And and there was some wrestling with God about like, where were you? Why, why weren't you there for that kid? And why, why didn't you provide some things? But in that journey, I was able to also see where God had shown up day after day, week after week, even when I had wandered away from him, even when I had pushed God away, how he kept, how he kept showing up in my life, kept being faithful. And so it was a wrestling period, but it was such an important wrestling period because it there were feelings I'd never allowed myself to feel with God. You know, one of the one of our favorite authors talks about the lot, the costly loss of lament, that one of the things that Christians really fail to do is they fail to lament the the brokenness of their world and the way that the wages of of sin and death in our lives, and that God's big enough to handle our lament, right? He God was big enough to handle me being mad at him. He was he was big enough to handle me questioning him. And it was in that space that God provided for me that I was able to feel even more loved by God and seen by God. And so it was such a, I think, a healing process for me to have space to do both. And I think for me, it was it was really scary. It felt like a rupture in my relationship with God in some ways, because so much of our relationship and our coming together felt directed by God. That we really felt a call early on that God was pulling us together because he wanted to do something, not just with us individually, but with us as a couple, with our relationship. And so we really felt called into some kind of ministry capacity together. We mentioned maybe even around marriage. That's what we were at grad school pursuing. We were working at churches, going to seminary together, when all of this came out. And it felt like immediately that vision was shattered, right? Like any qualifications we had to do, any of the things we thought we were going to do were immediately null and void. And I didn't even know if we would be talking to each other much ever again, much less using our relationship as a ministry, right? And because there was so much, so much pain for so many years as we were working through all of this, it was very, very unclear what the future held. And so um it was a period of feeling very lost. There wasn't a lot of direction from God in that time. It was very much this waiting space and um, which can make it feel like God is absent in some ways, even though we were seeing healing happen. We're also seeing seeing healing not happening in ways that we were hoping it to. Um, but I remember, you know, one of the most powerful stories of how obviously God did show up. He showed up in a big way in our story and really shaped so much of our purpose and our vision. But the the clearest example of that was about five years after this whole journey started, we had moved out of LA, moved down to San Diego. We were connected to a church and a therapy practice there, seeing clients. And uh, one of the pastors invited Matthew to attend a men's breakfast, the church we were at. They were helping another church startup, kind of like a recovery ministry for men. And so Matthew had been plugged into the recovery ministry at our church. The pastor invited him along to kind of be a part of that. And so I go to this meeting, I'm sitting down with these guys, and the pastor that I knew said, Hey, Matthew, do you mind sharing your testimony? It's really, you know, powerful and seeing what God has done. And so I tell the story. I tell the story about my life and addiction and and how it was killing everything I cared about and how I had prayed to God, right? Is there a way out of this? And how this anonymous pastor shows up at my wife's class and really sets me on the on the road to freedom. And as I finished telling my story, this guy at the end of the table says, Oh, you know, amen. That's my story. And and I was like, Oh, great, like you've you've been through what I've been through. You're an addict who's overcome it. And he goes, No, I was that pastor. He said, Five years ago in your wife's class was the very first time I've ever given my public testimony. And I've been praying for two years for a couple to come to our church and to do recovery. Wow. And and someone told me before this meeting that you were gonna meet a couple who should do this. And and I just remember I I messaged Joanna and I was like, Do you remember the pastor who gave your testimony? She's like, That is that's so wild. It was insane. I mean, it was like God was just showing off, right? He was and and within a couple of months, we were at that church, we were giving our testimony on stage, we were helping other couples kind of find healing, and and it really was, I think, a reminder for us both that God had always been there. Um, we didn't always feel it, but he but he was always there, and it and it really reminded us that he wanted to use our story. It was not a story we wanted to tell. We tell people all the time, right? This is not, don't don't look at this path as the path to follow necessarily. Right. Um, but we do know that God uses your story in powerful ways. And one of the things we get to do now is we get to gather couples who've been through this. And we we do an in-person retreat every year for a lot of our graduates and for couples who've been working with us for a long time. And our favorite part is we we pick two or three couples to give their testimony, and a lot of times it's the first time they've ever shared their full story publicly, and it's amazing just all to hear all the ways of God's faithfulness, God's presence, and God's love, and just the inspiration that it gives. And so that's a real big reason we we now do this. We come on podcasts and we share our story and talk about things we never thought we would be really, you know, experts in talking about. Yeah, yeah. Well, guys, I'm I'm I'm super thankful that you guys um agreed to do the podcast. It's such a blessing to see. I could see a level of depth and humility and um empathy towards each other. And it's just it's very um encouraging to see because that in today's culture we don't see that, right? We see kind of like um when these struggles kind of come up, like it's just well, that's it. You know, I have grounds or whatever the case is. And I know it hasn't been easy and know it's been a journey, but uh for me it's very encouraging.

Small Daily Habits That Change Marriage

44:30

I know it's very encouraging for the audience as well. And uh just to kind of leave them maybe with a nugget of wisdom, like what's your best piece of advice, whether it be from the recovery or just from a marriage perspective, like what would you say to anyone out there who's listening? You say, hey guys, here's our here's our little nugget of wisdom. Yes, I think for any relationship out there, the the little things matter so much, and especially if you're in a really tough place in your relationship, it can feel like you mentioned that mountain, right? It can feel like there is so much that has to happen to get us there. But most people, their life is crazy, their schedule is crazy, and imagining moving that much can feel almost hopeless. And so realizing that small tiny changes done every day consistently create dramatic transformation. One of the tools we have couples use right away is a couple's check-in. And it's a structured check-in tells you exactly what to share with each other on a daily basis. And it's amazing how many couples who use that daily for only 30 days go, it's only 10, 15 minutes a day, but they go, we feel so much more connected by that. And so it really is doable, creating change and transformation in your relationship. Yeah. And I'm indebted to a lot of wisdom from from many different places, but some of the 12-step clips still stick with me. And one of the ones that we used to always say to close our meeting was work it because it works and you're worth it. And so I want to remind people like it works when you find good therapeutic or like modalities, it works and it's worth it. Um, you're worth it. And for a long time, I knew what I was doing was wrong, but I didn't understand how to stop it. Learning how to stop it has helped me to really find integrity, which has been the greatest gift God has ever given me, is that the things I value, I actually get to show up and do. I don't do them perfectly, and that's why God's grace is there, and that's why there's more work for me to do. But just knowing that I can get that integrity in how I live, that's actually a gift. It's a really great gift of God's grace. And so just want to remind everybody that the work is worth it. Awesome.

Their Program Book And Free Resources

46:54

That's amazing. Um, guys, and you guys have a program. Do you guys want to share a little bit about it? I know yes, I've been given like concepts and parts of it, but yeah, share about your program. This is so helpful. I mean, even just in having this interview with you guys, I feel like I'm learning a lot that I can take them into my own practice. But yeah, share about your program and uh yeah, how the audience can reach you. Yeah, we've been really lucky to start what's called the Rab Smith team, which is now a growing team of couples who help other couples who are navigating the healing journey of betrayal to trust, to vulnerability, to intimacy. And we really help people from start to finish, from that first day of finding out to that last day of sharing that testimony and telling that story and finding victory. And we're really lucky to be able to do that and to have other couples along the way who've all gone through the journey. Everybody on our team is a couple and they've all been through it. They know what it's like, and they've made it to the other side, which has been really, really fun. And so people can connect with us at rabsmithteam.com. We also love to give away resources, like Joanna mentioned. We have this check-in that we love to give away, share with anybody. It's a great resource to use, and you can get that at rabsmithteam.com slash free. Yeah, and a great way to learn more about those layers that we were talking about honesty, safety, trust, vulnerability, intimacy in that intimacy pyramid. It's in the book that we wrote called Building True Intimacy, Creating a Connection That Stands the Test of Time. And that book's, it's actually for all couples out there, not just couples who have been through betrayal, because we realize every couple, every relationship that wants thriving intimacy, you have to use the same building blocks. It doesn't matter. And so it's really kind of what we've learned from working with couples who've been through about the worst thing you could imagine. The relationships they build are amazing. And so using those tools to help every couple build an amazing relationship. And is that that's on your website and Amazon? It's on the website, yeah, and we can share the links for that as well. Yeah, please do. Please do. I'll put it up in in the podcast description uh for the audience to access.

Final Thanks And Closing

48:58

But um, Matt and Joanna, thank you so much again for being here today. I really enjoyed this conversation. Again, you guys were the first couple that I've interviewed. I felt it felt very well. You guys did great. I feel very honored. Oh it was great, and um, yeah, I'm looking forward to release it in the in a couple of weeks, and um, I'm looking forward to getting the feedback. So, thank you guys again for your time, and I hope you guys have a good one. Thanks so much.