You Can Still Trust God after Unthinkable Loss w/ Ashley Glader

Some stories force a question most of us try to avoid: what do you do with God after life takes something you can’t replace? Ashley Glader joins me to share a journey marked by layered loss, starting with her brother’s death in the Columbine shooting when she was 11, and continuing years later with the medical crisis of her newborn son, months in the NICU and PICU, and his death shortly after coming home.

We talk honestly about Christian grief, trauma triggers, and the kind of doubt that doesn’t mean you’re walking away from Jesus, it means you’re trying to trust Him with your whole heart. Ashley explains why believers sometimes rush past pain with quick answers, why “everything happens for a reason” can wound, and what actually helps: steady presence, specific care, and friendship that can hold raw questions without trying to defend God.

You’ll also hear practical guidance for supporting a grieving friend, how marriage can strain when partners grieve differently, and what it looks like to parent children through loss as they revisit questions at each developmental stage. Ashley shares the Scriptures that anchored her, including Joshua 1:9 and 2 Corinthians 4:16–18, and why God’s greatest promise is not prosperity but His presence.

If you’ve been through infant loss, cancer, sudden death, or faith-shaking suffering, this conversation is for you. Subscribe for more Christ-centered healing conversations, share this with someone who needs hope, and leave a review. What part of grief do you wish the church understood better?

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. Um excited that you're here, as always, trying to bring forward a topic that is uh related to your Christian walk and is something that can draw you closer to the Lord as you continue on in your in your journey. And today I have Ashley Gladder who will be sharing about her story of um lost suffering and also how that's strengthened her faith in the Lord. So I know this is gonna be uh a good topic for us to digest and talk about. And yeah, Ashley, I'm excited that you're here.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, excited to be here.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, Ashley, usually when I start the podcast, I kind of just give um give the guests the floor to just introduce themselves, say something about their background, and kind of even sharing about their interest in in a topic like this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Okay, yeah, for sure. So I'm a mom to four children, and I have an amazing husband, and I nanny two little toddlers part-time, and I also substitute teach part-time. And I love writing in my free time. I have a blog at ashlegladder.com, and I'm in the process of writing a book right now. But yeah, I've always had a heart for helping people who've been through the fire.

Columbine Loss And Forgotten Grievers

SPEAKER_04 1:30

Yeah, yeah. And and based on what you shared, even through email, um, I mean, it sounds like you've been through some really, really tough losses. And I can't even imagine again just going through that. And a lot of people, Christians who experience things like that, I mean, in many ways it can break their faith. And uh, I'm looking forward to hearing you share kind of how where it took you and how that happened, how everything happened, and um, yeah, see where you are today.

Pregnancy Anxiety And Devastating Diagnosis

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Yeah, so I think like you had asked me, you know, what has given me a heart to encourage others in their faith and just through suffering. And so I would say it started when I was 11 years old and my oldest brother, he was 16. Um, he died in the Columbine shooting. And so that kind of began. For one, I really had a heart for siblings because they're known as the forgotten mourners. And a lot of times um they can kind of unintentionally be left out of a lot of the support that's given to the parents who have lost a child and everything like that. So I had a heart for siblings. Um, and I think later on in my journey is when I had more of a heart for the faith aspect. Um, my family was strong Christians and we stayed close to God through my brother's murder. Um, not that it wasn't challenging and heartbreaking, but it didn't really cause me to question my faith in God, even though I did start to have some skepticism, a little bit of, you know, well, what's what's kind of the point of praying for safety if, you know, stuff like this happens, or um just questions like that. As I grew older, uh, went to college, I got married at 23, and my husband and I started having kids fairly young. I was 25 with my first baby, uh, baby girl Branchett. And then we had uh my son John, and we named him after my brother who was murdered. And then with our third pregnancy, uh, I started having a lot of anxiety during that pregnancy, and I didn't really know why. It was still a little early on in it. And I wrote in my blog that I felt like God was telling me that no matter what the future held, I was gonna get through it with his strength, not my own strength. And I didn't know what that meant at that time, but I felt that weighing on my heart. And not long after that, probably a month or so after that, we went to our 20-week ultrasound and we found out that my son had uh a missing left arm and he had possible stomach and heart issues. So the future was very uncertain and unknown. But of course, we already loved him and we were gonna do whatever we could to fight for him. So he was born at 38 weeks pregnant. So after tons of ultrasounds and things all along the way, he was born at 38 weeks, and he was born not really breathing well. They had to intubate him right away. And um, one of his eyes looked different than the other. But, you know, he went straight to the NICU and things were stable, but then from that point on to make like a really long journey shorter. Um, we continue to find out about different health issues that my son had. So he had to have surgery on his intestines. We found out that his one eye looked different, actually didn't have an eyeball behind that eyelid. So it was just kind of like a cyst. And we found out that um, you know, he had some kidney issues. And as we progressed in the hospital, we kept finding out more and more. And one of the most devastating things we most devastating things we found out was that his um, I'm sorry, his trachea got so tiny to the point of a pen tip. So he that's why he wasn't able to breathe as well on his own. And uh we watched doctors doing CPR. He had basically open heart surgery, but with the trachea, and everything, you know, he kept fighting, he kept going, and after two and a half months, we actually got to bring him home. And you know, he had follow-up visits with all these different doctors.

SPEAKER_04 6:09

So in the hospital, yes, yep.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

So he was in the NICU, and then he got transferred down to the PICU when things got a little bit more um serious, I guess you could say. So the pediatric intensive care unit, um, they could do a little bit more for him. So yeah, we got him home and he was on a little bit of oxygen. He had a feeding tube, um, but he passed away in a sleep after a day and a half at home. And the doctors and nurses were just kind of surprised, you know, because they had just discharged him and obviously had a lot of health issues, but you know, we weren't expecting it. Um so I think after that experience, it really caused me to question God a lot more and have a lot more doubts. Um yeah, and we can go into those questions later on, but um and then just to two years after my son died, then my other brother, my only other living sibling, was diagnosed with stage four colon cancer. And he fought that for five and a half years and passed away just a year ago. Um but I will say that, yeah. So I will say though that because of all the wrestling I did with God through Joshua's death, my son, I came into my brother's diagnosis and went with him through that journey in a much different place than if I hadn't gone through uh my son's death.

SPEAKER_04 7:49

Yeah, yeah. I mean, even and again, just well, thank you for sharing that, Ashley. I know that's uh I mean, the processing, the coping, the support that you received along the way, and um even your faith, right? One of the things that that kind of holds everything together. Um, you know, one of the unique parts of your story is the Columbine shooting and how your brother was murdered in that. And that was, I mean, that was a national thing. And you said you were 11 at that time?

SPEAKER_03 8:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 8:20

So you had you made reference to your parents kind of being very strong believers and you know, kind of keeping the faith there. Now, from that point till um when you lost your son, um, what changed? Like what what was the biggest difference? Because 11 to 20, said 25.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

So uh when I had Joshua, I was 29.

SPEAKER_04 8:44

Okay, okay, that's right, that's right. So 29. So that's a a long range of you know, your own growth, own experiences, going through high school, all that college and everything. Um, what changed? What were what was that like from 11 to 29?

SPEAKER_00 8:59

Yeah, so I think as a teenager and really early into college, I had all of these deep questions. It felt like the more I studied the Bible, the more confused I was. And so I kind of got into um apologetics a little bit and listening to different speakers. Uh, Robbie Zacharias was one I really enjoyed listening to. And I remember even having a conversation with one of my youth pastors, he's the one who um married my husband and I. But I remember going into that meeting and and asking him about God in the Old Testament and just like how he seemed kind of arrogant and you know, cold. And um, so I was struggling with things like that. You know, what is the character in the heart of God, I guess. Um, but in all that time, I'd say like I still went to church, I still read my Bible, I still joined like on-campus ministries. Uh I never walked away from my faith, but I think there was always a part of me that didn't fully trust God. You know, I wasn't um, yeah, I think I just didn't fully trust him. I still had all these questions that I felt like I could just never get the answers to. Nothing ever kind of appeased me, you know.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

What kind of questions were you having?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I think just, you know, like like I said, kind of the character of God and why does he allow certain things like this to happen? Um, when my brother died, though, actually, I didn't, I felt like, why not us? Why shouldn't we experience suffering and loss? Like we're, you know, we're not exempt from any of that. So it wasn't in that regard, um, but maybe just the will of God and how his sovereignty works and uh yeah, his character and studying the Old Testament. I think there's just so many questions because we don't have the context a lot of times. Yeah, so just asking those types of things, but at the same time, I still knew that he was with me and I knew that I wanted him in my life. You know, I wasn't a matter of really questioning his promises like eternal life and you know, where we go when we die. I didn't question those types of things.

What Friends Say That Hurts

SPEAKER_04 11:22

Sure. Yeah. And what about friends that were around you? Because I I think sometimes when we have such big losses like this, you know, especially in your case, like friends want to say the right thing or they want to try to be very supportive. Like, were there things that they said that were like not helpful at all, or maybe just added more food to the fire? Okay, yeah, because I think that's the hard part, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah, definitely. I mean, and especially as a kid, you know, not many kids my age had been through anything close to that. And so you'd get like, yeah, my dog died. I I know how you feel. And you know, it's like, um not the same, not the same, yeah. Um, so yeah, I think that made me feel kind of set apart from everybody, you know, just kind of like I didn't fit in. I had this different perspective than a lot of people. And so that was hard, I think, growing up with that, especially like going into your teen years and everything like that. And then I remember even like in college, if I was having a hard day, or um the Virginia Tech shooting happened when I was in college. So each time those shootings or things would come up, it would kind of trigger, you know, things with my brother. And it's hard for people to get that, you know. Some people would say, Well, it's been a long time, you know, and they kind of expect you to move on.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Um and even more pressure sometimes on believers, right? Like, hey, the Lord should have healed that already. Like, you know, why is this still coming up for you type thing?

SPEAKER_00 13:03

Definitely. And I I think with my son's death, I felt like Christians really wanted to breeze past, you know, they want to get to like the redemption in the story, and they just want to tie a ribbon on it and be like, oh, but see, but see, look at all the good that came out of it, or see how God used it. Yeah. And that that really was hard for me then because you feel like people just want to pass over your pain, kind of like Job's friends in the Bible. You know, it's like they just kind of want, okay, we'll grieve with you for a little bit, but let's move on now, you know. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:44

Yeah. No, that that's that's one of the biggest frustrations I think that I have oftentimes. Um, you know, I work with a lot of trauma clients, and one of the things that they'll get from friends is that, well, you know, the Lord should have healed that part of you already, or you've had, you know, it's been a long time or whatever the case is. But, you know, I always remind them that, you know, God made us emotional, mental, physical, spiritual beings, and the physical, I mean, it's a way to keep us safe, to protect us, and we become aware of these things and so on. And it's just so hard when I hear stories like this because I know a big part of this, at least even from the research, what helps people oftentimes through these types of events is having strong social support. It sounds like your family was that for you when you were um younger. And who was that for you when you guys lost your when you lost your son? Did you have supportive friends and family and other people who were there?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Yeah, I feel extremely lucky because uh one of my kind of acquaintances introduced me to one of her friends who had just lost her baby. Uh, he lived for five days and she had spent months in the hospital, like trying to get him to, you know, an eight a point in the pregnancy where he would be okay if he lived, but he ultimately didn't end up living. We both shared the faith, and we we just like clung to each other because we could go through you know all these different emotions together. We could ask the really raw questions to each other that you just can't ask someone, you know, someone else who hasn't been through it. So that was really huge for me. And then we also were a part of an infant loss organization called Walk With Me. And it's just in Colorado, but they are amazing. So I think that can be really helpful, you know, if people don't have a lot of family support, just to even find one other person somehow that has been through, you know, something similar can be really helpful, or even support groups. We didn't do too much of that, but some people really, you know, enjoy that and find a lot from it.

SPEAKER_04 15:54

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, Ashley, you mentioned that, you know, your heart towards God didn't shift as much, like you had questions and you were walking through, but still trusted him in the process. Um, I imagine that maybe with some people, with other believers, um, maybe was there any type of different feelings towards them, like not knowing how to respond or what to say or what to do? So sometimes we have a secure attachment with God, but then with other people, it's like, you know, I'm kind of frustrated right now, and you're not really helping this process, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Yeah, totally. And I think, yeah, sometimes people just don't know what to say, and and that's okay, or sometimes they just don't say anything at all, and then you feel kind of forgotten. Um, and I think that's what I struggled with most losing my first brother is not feeling seen or kind of recognized in my grief a lot. Um and so, like losing my son, I felt more seen, but then also I was having all this wrestling with God with that, and so how other Christians respond to that too, you know, that can make them really uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

If you're questioning God or have doubts or um, you know, anything like that. So that could be a little bit awkward too, which what is why it was great when I had that one close friend that we could kind of um wrestle with our faith, you know, and we wouldn't judge each other, but we just take it and be like, yeah, I've wondered that too. But we knew we knew we still wanted a relationship with God, but you know, it wasn't threatening to us to tell each other those things. Whereas other people I think they feel like they need to defend God, right?

SPEAKER_04 17:41

Right. That's that's so true. It's almost it's a it's almost a lose-lose, right? Either you don't, you're not coping well enough, or it's too fast, or you know, there's there's I can sense the mixed emotions around all of that. And um it was really helpful to have someone um along the same journey. Um, were there questions that they had that kind of caught you by surprise? Were, you know, as they were sharing their story, um, that you're like, oh, I haven't, I didn't think about that, or or um just something that resonated with you more from that friend.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Um I think in our journeys, we did kind of go a little bit separate ways for a time, where I I knew, you know, I we both agreed like we didn't want, we God didn't want those things to happen, but he allowed them, you know. Um whereas I think sometimes she went down a little bit of a different path, like she really pulled apart her entire faith and was kind of questioning everything she thought she knew, you know, about God, about Christianity. And I wasn't quite there. Like I had the wrestling questions, but I still went back to you know, all the basics of the faith. Um but I think just being there for each other, and I I feel like she's come a long way in her journey with God again, but I think for a time she almost disconnected a bit, you know. Um but she did keep going. And I think because she had people in her life that she could talk to about these things, and you know, I think she got a spiritual advisor and things like that, like um just helping her go through all the questions and doubt that she had.

Marriage And Different Grief Styles

SPEAKER_04 19:38

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's so it's so important, and you know, as as we're talking about that, um, you know, your husband comes to mind because obviously him knowing maybe your background of what you grew up with and how you guys got together, and then you guys lose um a son together. What was that like? Because you know, you guys are both going through the fire together, and not all the times are we feeling the same way. Um, you know, it's very it can be very mixed, or one maybe is stronger that moment than the other. So yeah, can you share a little bit about what that was like? Just whatever you feel comfortable with, Jordan.

SPEAKER_00 20:12

Yeah, no, definitely. I mean, and that's something I talked with my friend, her name's Heidi. Um, we would talk about that because men grieve very differently. And um even if it's, you know, we might cry more or express our grief more, talk about our children more, and men and I don't want to speak for all men, but you know, a lot of times it's harder for them to kind of put their grief into words or you know, whatnot. They can kind of go inside of themselves more, I think. Um they need to be a strong one too. Yes, oh absolutely, yeah. I definitely felt that. And I I felt like no, I just want you to be here with me in this, you know. Like I wanted to see and that's this could sound bad, but I wanted to see like his pain, and I wanted to know I wasn't alone in it, and I didn't want him to feel like he would had to be the strong one. But you're right, I think a lot of men feel like that they need to be the rock.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Um, but yeah, it was interesting too with my husband's faith journey because I feel like he was set on fire for God through it. I mean, he would like send me scriptures, you know, text them to me, and he was all of a sudden listening to like all these preachers on his drive to work. And it was actually really amazing to see that. And I know I have friends whose husbands went the other direction, you know, and they were mad at God. So it's just interesting how different people cope and deal with that. But you're right. Some days, you know, I could be having a hard day and he wasn't, or he's having a hard day. And sometimes that can be helpful because you can kind of support each other. Lifting each other up in that way.

Helping Kids Grieve Over Time

SPEAKER_04 22:02

Yeah. Yeah. And how how how is that something that you share with your other kids? Because that's another layer to this as well, right? That like really what we're doing when we're grieving the loss, we're modeling for others kind of what that looks like, right? Where it's okay for me to share how I'm feeling, it's okay for me to show how I'm feeling, and also to have some doubts, but also come to this um resolution that I still trust God and and He's gonna come for me throughout this time. How do you share that? Pass that on to your kids because they're seeing you, you know, and even maybe as a mom, also needing to feel strong for them, too.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, for sure. I think that was one of the most heartbreaking things is having to tell, you know, our daughter that her baby brother had died. But I also think she was four at the time, and my other son was almost two, so he didn't really understand as much, but my daughter definitely understood. And I think maybe part of the reason she did understand is because I had shared with her already about my brother. And, you know, I never wanted I never wanted death to be something that we don't talk about, you know, or gets uncomfortable because death is a part of life, it's a part of our journeys, you know. And so I had shared with her already about you know, my brother in heaven and obviously age appropriate, you know, talking about it. But um yeah, I think kind of guiding them through their grief too is just letting them lead the way a little bit, is what we did, is like if they want to talk about him, they you know, we'll talk about him. If they don't, that's okay. And um, there were definitely times though that you know I'd want to go put on a movie for them, and then I'd go in my room and have some time to just cry or grieve. So I, you know, it was I wasn't shy about crying in front of them, but it wasn't also something I wanted to always be doing, you know, around them either.

SPEAKER_04 24:12

Yeah, yeah. Did you struggle with that like um not wanting to cry around them and or or even knowing what to exactly say? Like what was that process like as well? Like what do I say with that? Like, what were some words that you shared with with her?

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah, I think sometimes if you know something came up, I just feel like, you know, I'm just really missing him right now, or I'm thinking about him. And I think she understood, but I think it's also just uncomfortable. You know, it's uncomfortable for kids to see their parents and crying or distressed. But I think it's it is good for them to see that sometimes, you know, maybe not all the time, but I think it's good that they can see that like it's okay, it's okay to cry. Like, we don't need to hide that. Um but yeah, I it's interesting too, because they were so young, we've had a lot of conversations as they've gotten older. Um, one of my friends, she also lost a child. Her daughter was two years old, and she had put her kids in counseling. And one something the counselor said that really stayed with me was that as kids grow and go through these different stages of their development, they kind of start to um look back on the death of their brother or sister and like see it in a new way, in like a new light. And they almost have to like reinvestigate that each time. And I was thinking that's so interesting because I I kind of did that with my brother in a sense, like, you know, as you're a teenager, you're thinking some things, and then when you're in college, you might be seeing it in a whole new way and investigating different things about it. And so I just thought, oh, that's so true. So as time's gone on, you know, with my daughter and my son, they would ask new questions, or even now they'll ask questions, and it's been, you know, that was 2017. Um they'll ask questions like, How did he die again? You know, or what happens? And it's just interesting because it, you know, we've talked about it over and over, but it's like they're reprocessing that in their brain, yeah, you know, and trying to make sense of it in a new way.

SPEAKER_04 26:31

Yeah. And even for the younger siblings too, right? Like at some point, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

So we so I had a I had a baby after uh Joshua died. So um our youngest child never knew his older brother. But yeah, the other my other son was only he just turned two, like not long after he died. Um, so he didn't really have memories of Joshua, but even as he grew, he would say things like, I wish he was here, you know, I miss him. So they're still processing it and still dealing with some of those emotions.

Cancer Grief And Surrender

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Yeah, yeah. Um, I'm curious, was there a noticeable difference between um, I mean, you were living with with um with your brother and then in college with your or after college with your um baby, right? And then with your recent loss of your brother. What was was there any different? Did you cope kind of the same way? Were you doing things differently? Like I'm I'm guessing that there was something new in each grieving stage, but I don't know, like what was that like for you for the most recent loss of your brother?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Yeah, I think that was such a different thing, too, because my brother lived for five and a half years with colon cancer.

SPEAKER_04 27:56

Was that not common? Is it not common for it to last that long? Does it usually happen a lot faster?

SPEAKER_00 28:03

So he had stage four when he was diagnosed. So yeah, they you can die pretty quickly. Um, it was only a 13% five-year survival rate for someone diagnosed with stage four cancer. So yeah, he lived a long time with it. And I'd say the last couple years he had it, um it was really painful just to see his body, you know, deteriorating. And I think it adds a whole nother layer. You know, my first brother died instantly, pretty much, and he didn't have to suffer. And, you know, we did watch my son suffer, and we had to watch my other brother suffer, and I think that does just add a different layer to the grief. And yeah, and you are, you know, kind of like with my brother, I was definitely grieving his death before he even died, and I think that was different than the other two losses that I had had. Um but as far as like my faith, I feel like that's where the biggest difference was because with Joshua, I was asking all these questions and like wrestling, and at the end, kind of that wrestling, I realized that I'm just not always gonna get the answers to my questions. And I'm not um sorry, I lost my train of thought. Um, I'm not gonna get the answers to my questions, and sometimes we don't know why certain things happen, you know? And that's just how it is. And my comfort was that in the end, when we see Jesus face to face and we're in heaven, like it's gonna make sense. I don't know how, but it's it's gonna make sense and all is gonna be made right. And that's what I hung my hope on. And so when my brother went through all of that, I didn't really ask why. You know, it was like, I don't know, we might never know the answer, and we might not see all tons of good stuff come from it. Now, I will argue that we you can always see some good in every situation, but that was the other hard contrast is when I lost my brother at Columbine, we saw so much good come from it. You know, we saw so many people giving their lives to Christ and sending us letters and saying, I was a lukewarm Christian and I'm not I'm not gonna be that anymore. Um it was amazing. And then, you know, with my son's death, it felt like, okay, God, like, what was the purpose of all that suffering? Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

You know, right?

SPEAKER_00 30:42

I just saw my baby suffer and go through all these horrible things for months, and then he just dies. You know, like it's like I wanted to see something good come out of that.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

And I think we all do, you know, when we go through any type of suffering. But that was really hard for me because at least like you want to see, okay, it wasn't in vain. We got some purpose out of the pain. Um, and I had to really go back into like all of my memories in the hospital and all that with Joshua and just see the good and see the evidence that God was there, even when I didn't feel Him. And so I think after all of that, going into my other brother with cancer, I wasn't I wasn't like, okay, what's all, you know, I'm gonna add up all the good things that came out of this. Like, I just kind of had more of an acceptance and a surrender. Like, we don't know why this why he got colon cancer at 35, you know, and we might not see all the fruit that comes, you know, that happened because of this, but I think we will see those things in heaven. And um and my brother too, he had such a great attitude through all of it. Like he he wasn't mad at God, he didn't ask God why. Like he was amazing. And so I think, yeah, just kind of I just came into that process just with more of a surrendered spirit and my hope being in heaven and in, you know, Christ's promise to be with us and to give us eternal life and all will be made right. And you know, we can't we can't hang anything really on this life and in this earth, you know. Like one of the questions you asked me was, uh, did I ever feel like abandoning my faith? And I think, you know, there was a time when Josh was still in the hospital where I felt like, what is like, what are you doing, God? I don't get it, you know. But where else do you find hope? There's no hope in this life. I mean, you can't put your hope in people either because we're all gonna let each other down.

SPEAKER_01 33:03

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

So uh yeah, I just there was no hope I could find in this life and in what was around me, and I had to you know put all my hope in God and Jesus.

The Peter Moment And Ongoing Pain

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Yeah, yeah. Ashley, you you'll you'll appreciate this because I I've talked about this before. I call it the Peter moments, and that basically what you share right there, that's a Peter moment in that um when Jesus was doing all the miracles and people were following him, and you know, he had all these disciples that were you know supposedly following him, and then they got to a point where, okay, um, not doing any more miracles anymore, and they left. And then Jesus turns over to his disciples and he says, Will you leave me too? And uh Peter goes, Lord, where do we go? You have the words of eternal life, right? And I think that's the realization that I think us as believers we we get to. It's like as much as I could look out outside of this situation that I'm in, what do I turn to to alleviate the pain, right? Because that's usually the the response is I want to alleviate the pain, and some people will abandon their faith, some people will take on vices, some people will live a life of sin and then they come back later. But I think there's also this other aspect of as believers we'll realize that all of that just leads to more emptiness or more sadness or more problems. And you know, and I'm I'm wondering if that's kind of what the experience was like, where it's like, yeah, Lord, I mean, I'm frustrated, I'm don't know what you're doing here, but you're the only hope I have. So I'm gonna keep trusting in you.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Exactly. I love that, like the Peter moment. I think that's really great. Yeah, I felt that exactly. It's like where else do you turn? You know?

SPEAKER_04 34:46

So yeah, well, I I know that, and now looking back, um I I guess this is where you can fill me in on that. Is there still pain? You know, is there still um pain from each of those experiences that comes up for you every once in a while? Or has it been more, can you regulate it more when it comes up? It's like, you know, Lord, it was a lesson, or it was, you know, here's how I felt about that. Like, is there still pain from the past?

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Uh yeah, I think definitely. And I think uh there's things that can trigger that more, you know. But I think especially losing this last loss, losing my brother, it can bring up those other losses. And then, you know, thinking of him in heaven with my other brother and with my son. It's like yeah, it it just it kind of makes all those other losses come to the surface a little bit more. So I think there's definitely pain. And I I don't think you ever necessarily get over your grief, but you learn you know to live with it. And and time does help. Like, I I kind of hate when people say um it never gets easier. I hate when people say that because it absolutely does get easier, but I do think like having faith in God is what heals you, you know, time doesn't heal you because we've talked to people that have lost a child and it'll be 20 years later and they feel like they're still kind of stuck, you know, in the same place. So I think you know, Jesus heals you and um having that hope and God heals you, but time does help, you know.

SPEAKER_04 36:29

And why do you think that, Ashley? Why do you think that they that they're stuck there? What do you attribute to that?

SPEAKER_00 36:37

I think when you don't have any idea what happens to someone when they die, like if you I I've volunteered at a grief camp for kids, it was called Camp Aaron, and you couldn't really talk about your faith there, which was really hard for me. But they, you know, a lot of the people were like, Yeah, I just I don't know where they are, you know. I don't know, I don't know what happened to them. And to me, that would be so hard to like keep moving forward, knowing like I don't know where they are, I might never see them again. Like that that's horrible to me. I don't know how you could move on, really, you know. So for me, knowing like, no, I know where they are, I know I'm gonna see them again, that's huge. And I think that can make all the difference. You know, the Bible even says that if you're a believer, you grieve differently than the world grieves.

How To Show Up Well

SPEAKER_04 37:31

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And that's a great point too, because yeah, we do have that expectation that we will see um other believers, people that we love as well, um, that we'll see them in heaven, right? Um you know, with all of this that you've experienced, and you've, I'm sure, have encountered other people who have lost or have been through a season of suffering, um, from these experiences you take away some promises that you clung to throughout the way. And how do you show up for people who are going through a painful and maybe not just losses itself, but also just suffering in general? Like, how do you show up for them? I know you have a heart for being an encouragement to other believers when they're going through something difficult and strong suffering like this. Um, yeah, how do you show up for it? Like, what's your mode and approach to ministering to them?

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah, I think a really practical thing, and you've probably heard this from other people, but don't ask someone like or say, you know, let us know if you need anything. They're they're not gonna let you know.

SPEAKER_04 38:39

Right. That's a great point. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

And and you know what, I I have had a little bit of that where people ask me and I'll give them something, and then sometimes it doesn't happen, which is fine. But you know, it's kind of like if if you say that, like you've gotta mean it.

SPEAKER_01 38:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

And most likely people won't reach out because they don't want to be a burden.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

So, you know, I say, I would say to people, like, just do something. Like, even if it's just write a card, give it to them, say, I'm thinking about you, write a text. Like that, you know, that's so easy to do now. It takes seconds. Just text them and say, Hey, I'm thinking about you today. I'm praying for you, and don't expect a response back. And I kind of learned that a little bit when someone who had been in my Bible study also lost her child. And I was thinking, like, oh, she's gonna want to like, you know, connect with me, and we're um hopefully I can be an encouragement to her. And and I wouldn't always get a lot back, you know, like when if I'd send a text or something. And I just had to be like, you know what, it's not about it's not about me, and just like send a text or a card or encouragement. And if she gets back to me, she does. Like that's but if she doesn't, that's okay too, you know. So um, so yeah, I'd say like give without expecting anything in return, and you know, drop off a meal or say, like, is there a night this week that I could drop a meal off? Um, just you know, you're being courteous, but you're not putting all of it in their hands, you know. Um and yeah, I think for people who aren't believers, you know, you don't have to beat them with the gospel or anything, but just saying I'm praying for you. Um, there's a I volunteer with that infant loss organization that I told you about, Walk With Me. And I've been speaking with a woman who lost her baby, and she's not a believer. And so I just try to, you know, tell her I'm praying for you. And like if she ever wants to talk about faith or anything like that, I'm here for her, but just trying to relate to her, you know, as just two grieving mothers. Um and also again, something a lot of people say is just listening and not please don't give any Christian platitudes.

SPEAKER_02 41:15

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:17

Um I once had someone ask me, like, well, God does everything for a reason. So what was the reason for your son dying?

SPEAKER_04 41:27

In that moment?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

It was just yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:29

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

It was like after, maybe like a month or two after.

SPEAKER_04 41:34

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

And I just said, I don't know, why don't you tell me?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

But you know, it was just stuff like that. It's like, no, no, no. Don't don't bring up stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 41:47

And actually, are these people that are like close to you? Like, are they people that you knew for a long time?

SPEAKER_00 41:51

Or I mean, she was I'd say she's more of an acquaintance, but I did know her for a while.

SPEAKER_04 41:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Um, not a close friend or anything.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

Do you feel like closer friends respond better or differently than maybe those who are like in the middle?

SPEAKER_00 42:06

Um possibly, yeah. Yeah, I'd say like overall, probably closer friends respond better. But I think it also kind of just depends. I think as a kid, like going through my first brother's death, I didn't have as much tolerance for the dumb things people would say.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Um I mean, I know my mom, she said someone after my brother died said, Oh, what are you gonna do with that room now?

SPEAKER_04 42:35

What? Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

And she's just like, oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 42:42

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:44

You but like I think as I grew older, maybe got a little more mature, maybe a little bit. Um, I kind of just tried to see things as like they're trying to relate, you know, they're they're trying to bring some sort of comfort. And I I kind of gave people a little more grace that you know, it's hard to say something to a grieving person. And I get that, you know, we can be really moody, raw, like it can be hard to say anything, right? So I think when people choose to say something and to reach out, like automatically, I think that takes some courage and you know, give them a little bit of grace, even if they don't say the right things, or even if they say something kind of offensive, you know, just kind of thinking they just don't understand, you know. I think giving them that grace because a lot of people just don't understand. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

Yeah. No, I think that's good because I think it can also be very easy to um to develop very strong, um, maybe negative feelings towards not just that person, but others who do the same thing. But I think, yeah, that that element of if I'm just gracious and just understand that they're trying. Trying to connect in some way, maybe that alleviates some of that of that um negative feeling towards them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

Yeah, exactly. And I think even like, you know, I talked about the dog thing, like, oh, I lost my dog. I I can relate to you. My friend and I talked about that a little bit of, you know, for someone in their life, that might have been like the top pain scale for them. And so they're trying to relate like the worst thing that's happened to them to like the worst things that happened to you. You know? So kind of giving them that grace too of like that was really painful for them. And they're just trying to relate. Um but on the same token, I think I've even had to like train myself when relating to other people um not to mention my own losses, you know, when when talking to someone else. So it can just be easy to be like, I know, I I kind of understand what you're going through. I lost my brother or my son or whatever, but really just like listening to them and letting them talk and not not bringing myself into it as much, unless they want to know, you know, different things and relating experiences.

Anchoring Verses And Final Encouragement

SPEAKER_04 45:11

But yeah, yeah, no, that that that's fair. And um yeah, those are really good practical tips of learning how to be there for people who are suffering, going through a difficult, difficult time. Um actually you mentioned uh a couple of promises that you clung to throughout this process, or maybe their takeaways after the fact. And um, I know one that really stuck with me because uh it's such a it's such a strong, strong one that I I cling to as well, is um how we will see our um saved loved ones when we go to heaven. And that's that gives us hope that we will see and when we'll see Jesus and he's gonna be there for us, and he's gonna explain and we're gonna understand you know everything at that point. Um, but are there other promises that you cling to or that you learn throughout this uh this whole process, these events?

SPEAKER_00 46:03

Yeah, I think the the biggest um promise that I clung to. So when my son Joshua was born, I took out my Bible and started reading the book of Joshua, and I wanted to find a verse that I could cling to during that time. And I came across it very early on, Joshua 1.9. Do not be afraid, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go. And that was Josh's verse. And like our kids memorized it, and truly through that process, through his life and through his death, I realized the greatest promise God has for us is to be with us. That's one of the greatest promises that we have. It's not to heal us or give us a miracle. Um you know, it's not for health, wellness, and uh prosperity, but it's to be with us in his presence. And that's ultimately what we get in heaven, too. We get him, which is so amazing. And so, yeah, I'd say that is one of the biggest things I clung to. And also my brother who died of cancer, his verse that is actually on his gravestone, and I absolutely loved it, is 2 Corinthians 4, 16 through 18.

SPEAKER_04 47:22

Oh, I love that one. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Do not lose heart, though. Our outwardly we are wasting away, yet inner inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. Since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal. I think that just encapsulates encapsulates everything, you know, it's like don't put your hope in this world, it's in the next life.

SPEAKER_04 47:53

So am I no, I appreciate that, Ashley. That was really, really encouraging. Um, thank you for sharing your story. Uh, you know, one of the things I I always like to ask as well is is there anything that we missed? Anything that you feel um, you know, this was something that I wish the audience can take away from from this conversation today. Um, what's a takeaway or two that you would give to listeners about your experience or just which what the Lord taught you throughout this time? Um, now as ref as you're reflecting back?

SPEAKER_00 48:25

Yeah, I think a big thing is we won't always have the answers to our questions, and we might not even see the good that's come out of something horrible. Um, but I encourage people to keep wrestling with God, keep seeking answers, even if you know they're questions that you might not get the answers to, um, but to just keep persevering. So my son Joshua, he only had one arm. And I don't know if you know the story of finding Nemo, but um, it's a kid's movie, and he's a little clownfish that only has one good fin. And the whole theme, the whole theme through the whole movie is just keep swimming, just keep swimming. And so that's what I really encourage everybody to do is just keep swimming, just keep seeking God, keep moving forward. Um, sometimes it's you know really small steps that you're taking, but just keep going. And also another thing is even when you can't feel God, trust that He is there. And there were times, uh especially throughout my son's life, that I felt like God, just give me peace. Just I just prayed for peace and I it wouldn't come, you know, and I I wouldn't feel like I felt him. But then one thing that time helps with is it can kind of help you to get some perspective and to look back and to dig through those memories and dig through the trauma and the heartache and see that oh yeah, God what God sent me that person to bring me that meal that day. Or, you know, I saw my little boy smile, that was such a gem in that awful time. You start to realize the beauty and the good that is in those situations that maybe you couldn't see before because you were just so overwhelmed with pain. So, you know, just encouraging people that you you might not always feel God and you might not always feel that peace, but he is there to try to look for him.

SPEAKER_04 50:37

Those are super helpful. Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, Ashley, at the beginning, you you shared that you were writing a book and just wanted to kind of if you want to share a little bit about that and release it, or just the theme or topic.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

Yeah, so I don't have a um I have a working title, and my working title is to wrestle and to embrace. So it's all about just wrestling with God and learning to finally just embrace him and surrender to him and his will and finally have peace throughout it. Um, so yeah, it it talks about my my journey and then just my faith journey as I wrestled with God through that.

Book Project And Closing

SPEAKER_04 51:21

Okay, yeah, great. Well, feel free to feel free to reach out and let me know about it. You know, I could put it up on the um podcast notes and add it to the the page. And um again, Ashley, thank you for for sharing your story. I know it's gonna be an encouragement to a lot of people, um, because I mean there's there's so many questions that Christians have, and there's a lot of questions around loss, and I think your story is is very is an encouraging one because it's a reminder of not always knowing or having the answers, but trusting in God's character and who he is. And I think today the message has been that God will remove those things immediately. Either it's an immediate relief, or it's I need to leave this because I didn't get what the relief I was looking for. And um, I think you're sort of just the idea of continuing to trust in God's character is really kind of where we want to land. Um and uh yeah, I just thank you for sharing and I appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Yeah, thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, it's great talking to you.

SPEAKER_04 52:26

Likewise, likewise. Alright, guys. Well, I will see you guys next time and uh with another topic, and we'll see you then.