Rebuilding Faith After Deconstruction w/ Patrick Hubbard

Doubt, distance, and disappointment don’t have to be the end of your faith story. They can be the door back to a deeper, sturdier life with God. Today we sit down with pastor and church planter Patrick Hubbard to explore deconstruction with nuance—naming real wounds, clarifying core doctrines, and recovering the kind of church life that quietly forms people over time.

Patrick traces his journey from international church planting with Living Bread Ministries to launching a local congregation built on essentials: Scripture read and preached, weekly communion, congregational singing, and shared prayer. Instead of chasing the next experience, they lowered the volume so the room could hear itself worship. That shift—from worship as a private encounter to worship as communal formation—reshaped how people healed and how they grew. We also tackle the lingering effects of the pandemic, when many learned to treat online viewing as “equivalent” church. Patrick explains why his church intentionally refused to simulate the gathering, and how presence, participation, and proximity enable the one-anothers that streams cannot.

We get practical about doctrine and reconstruction. Which beliefs are non-negotiable? Patrick names the center—Jesus’ virgin birth, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, and promised return—and urges charity on secondary issues that should not break fellowship. We discuss politics, culture-war fatigue, and the quiet harm done when celebrity conversions get platformed without patient discipleship. Fruit, not hype, signals genuine faith. As Christ’s ambassadors, our endorsements, corrections, and everyday conduct either reflect or distort the One we represent.

If you’re wary, wounded, or wondering where to begin, Patrick offers a simple next step: show up in faith. Don’t hunt for a church that checks every box; find a body that needs your gifts and start serving. Healing has a pace, but growth requires presence. Subscribe, share this conversation with a friend who’s wrestling, and leave a review to help others find it.

Transcript

Welcome And Episode Focus

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing podcast. I'm excited to be discussing another uh topic uh regarding the church and regarding um today we're gonna be talking about deconstruction and I'm here today with Lead Elder at Restoration Hill Community Fellowship, uh Patrick Hubbard. And I've known Patrick for for for many years and we've caught up every once in a while. I think we did an episode a long, long time ago, and um so that was fun. And I think it was on this topic, but we're gonna go a little bit deeper uh this time around. So I'm looking forward to our discussion. And Patrick, welcome back. Uh thank you, it's good to be back. Absolutely, absolutely. I love having these conversations. You know, a lot of this is about helping people, Christians who um are in a difficult spot where they're wanting to reconnect with God, don't know how to do it, just feel lost, have tried church, gone back and forth, don't really know where they stand. And I'm hoping that the conversation that we're having um is able to point them in in the right direction, or at least open them up to more opportunities. But um, yeah, Patrick, uh being a uh lead elder, pastor at the uh Restoration Hill Community Fellowship, I'm sure you've heard a lot of stories as um as to why people come to church, uh why they may have left previous churches, and um, and yeah, just overall this desire to want to connect with God and wanting answers on how to do that. Um before we jump into our topic, we're gonna talk about deconstruction. If you could just tell the audience just a little bit about yourself and what you do. I know you also have Living Bread Ministries, and uh yeah, if you could just share a little bit about that as well.

Patrick’s Work And Church Plant Story

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Uh sure. Yeah. So uh Patrick Hubbard, I um, as you said, we I lead Living Bread Ministries, which is a uh church planning organization that works in uh Brazil and Thailand. And my wife and I started that in 2004. So we're we're running up on 22 years coming uh this March, uh, just kind of plugged plugging away, uh planting churches in um just needy communities, uh, people, you know, the stats, people living on a dollar a day, two dollars a day, those types of communities. And um, and then we've kind of taken a novel approach where we have uh equipped our church plants to minister tangibly to the needs in the community. So uh rather than having an outside uh entity coming in to do feeding ministries, clothing, education, medicine, uh, we kind of we do all that through the local church. And uh so we've been doing that for that long. And then uh in 27, 27, early 2017, uh my wife and I started along with another guy, we started a Bible study in our home, um, kind of worked through the Sermon on the Mount, and and it was mainly people uh we we started off wanting to reach people in our neighborhood. It ended up being people for like friends that um were not plugged in in a church anywhere. Um, and so we did that Bible study through this, you know, the spring and the summer, and by the by the end of the summer, we got in a place where we realized we wanted to we wanted to plan a church. And I and I had wanted, we had been involved in church planning for a long time at that point, but we had wanted to kind of take what we had learned overseas and apply it in our own context. Uh, and so we kind of started praying with that group, and we did, I think we worked through the book of James, and then we worked through kind of like elders and deacons and just kind of basic ecclesiology stuff. And and by Thanksgiving, I think we had decided like, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna plant a church. And so we had our first service on the first Sunday of Advent in 2017. I'm terrible with dates, but I'm pretty sure that date's right.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Um almost like nine years. Yeah. That's wild.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And um, and so it was like a we planted it like we plant churches overseas. We um, you know, we had a guitar and a Bible and and a handful of people, and you know, we didn't we didn't have like a sending team or any of that. And uh, we just we didn't raise any money. We just paid as we went and found a little hole in the wall to rent and just kind of went. But some of those people ended up not going with us because they just were like they they had left church, they they were done with church, they were fine with a Bible study. Um, but when it we once we started moving in that direction, they they kind of said, Yeah, we're not we're not about that. So it ended up being like, I don't know, two families and and a single person was all that it was initially. And then it's ebbed and flowed, kind of grown. We really started getting some traction, and then COVID hit, and then we had all that mess. And um, like we doubled our membership, and then the next week the world shut down. And so then it was just a mess. And so so we've we've kind of just um ebbed and flowed, but but it it ended up we ended up attracting or ministering to again, it's a small church, but percentage-wise, a fair amount of our people or people that have been hurt and left church for a time, so you know, a year, three years, up to 10 years. And um, and so we've kind of fallen into this and wouldn't really setting that setting out to uh reach that that specific group of people, but um that's it's just kind of the way the Lord led and kind of how we ended up. So that's a nutshell of a story, I guess.

COVID, Online Church, And Formation

SPEAKER_01 6:08

Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's what to think about how much COVID changed everything, because even prior to that, the conversations were around deconstruction. So that deconstruction then moved into okay, well, maybe people will start coming back, but then COVID hit, and now you have more people leaving the church. So not because of you know, challenging their faith, but now it it seemed to be a convenience factor. Like, oh, now I could just go to online church and and that should suffice. And you know, I'm not around people from the church anymore, so but I'm still getting the word, I still hear some songs, and maybe that's enough. And it's kind of still continued to slowly decline since since COVID. Um, sure what the numbers are. I was looking at some, but this is more so of people who are still deconstructing where those numbers are still pretty pretty high. Um but yeah, what what did you what have you seen? So we have deconstruction, and then we also have this other element of comfort or easiness of faith in a sense. Um, yeah, what what do you see regarding those two concepts? Do you see any correlation or connection with them?

Why Embodied Worship Shapes Disciples

SPEAKER_00 7:20

I I do, and and you know, not to focus on that COVID era, but something you said uh made me think of this. I think one of the issues that we had during COVID, and and we and again, I think everybody I I I try to be as gracious as possible when when when I am assuming people's motives. So I I think everybody was doing the best they could. Everybody was trying to figure out how to get through this thing and and you know what we do, what we don't do, what we comp you know. I think it was a very complicated time. Um, but one of the things I think that we did, um, we were very intentional. It was kind of against the grain. I think what most churches did when they shut down is they wanted to, they they worked really hard to convince people that uh at-home church, internet online church was equivalent. Right? And so like you're gonna have this online church, and I mean people were they were doing communion, and you know, you're gonna have this online thing, and it's gonna be it's it's equivalent. It's it is church. Um, and we actually did the opposite. Like we we I I I preached and we recorded it, um, but like we take communion every week at our gathering. We didn't take communion at all when we were when we were doing it online um because we weren't the gather church. Um and so like we we kind of approach to that. We want to facilitate the discipleship of our people, but we want there to be a clear distinction. They every Sunday they should feel like something's missing. This isn't this isn't the way it's supposed to be. This isn't what this isn't right, something's wrong. Um, and so we we we didn't set out to replace um in-person worship with online. And and I think a lot of I think a lot of places they were trying to recreate in-person online to make it as good. And I think I think some of the second and third order implications of that that maybe weren't thought out is when the opportunity to come back was presented, and well, I've been doing it online all this time, and all all this time online's been equal or the same. This is church. So I'm just gonna keep doing it this way. It's convenient, it's comfortable. I can do it in my pajamas. Um, and so I do think that was, I do think that has been part of it for some people. I think there are um elements where you know when people are shut-ins and they're sick, we record our sermons and upload them in case we have someone who misses or like like we can use those technologies, but I don't think I don't think um disconnected people watching a screen um is is equivalent to the gathered church literally together doing anything. Because I think uh not to get off in a rabbit trail, but kind of there's two two two ideas when it comes to corporate worship. There's worship as experience, and there's worship as a formation. As a as formation, right? So being formed into the image of Jesus. Um, and so worship is experience is is more your seeker-friendly um churches. And the idea is we're going to do we're gonna do worship in such a way that we craft an environment that you have this encounter with God. Um and and and and again, I think everybody's doing what they think is best. I'm not, and I think God works in multiple ways and he uses multiple approaches. Um and and but in those in those types of churches, the experience is is very important. Um, and so when they went to online, they had the they still had the music, they did, they really tried to recreate everything that they were doing. Um and and the idea there is a lot of the way that they're crafted is you actually lose sight of the people around you, and it's kind of it's it's crafted so that you can have this kind of in personal, private encounter with God. Um, and I don't think that's the best way to do corporate worship. I don't think it's the most um, I don't think that's what we see historically or in the scriptures. Um worship is formation, is this idea that uh when the church gathers in obedience and we do the things that that are prescribed in the scriptures, the Spirit of God shows up and does something in us that otherwise is not going to happen, right? And so it's about discipleship, right? And so I think I think there's a distinction, like read your Bible, get up in the morning and have your quiet time, right? I think God God uses that, God will bless that. But there's something different about the corporate gathered body of Christ in obedience to him, publicly reading the scriptures, yeah. And I think when we do that, the spirit shows up and does something, and so I think I don't, I I just don't think you can recreate that online. Um, I think you need I think there's a reality where the the corporate body has to be together, and we in in in in unity, um and in obedience to Christ, trusting that he is going to work through these things to shape us into his image, um, we sing uh psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, we pray corporately, we we listen to the word preached, uh, we take the Lord's table. Um, and I just don't think you can recreate those things online. And so if the spirit shows up with the gathered church, um it's probably beneficial to watch someone preach on YouTube, but the spirit's not showing up in that in the same way that he is when his body is gathered in obedience to him. Yeah. It's um so so I just see I see it as being distinct.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Yeah, no, I agree with that, brother. I I think um, I mean, just relationships in general, you I mean, you wouldn't have a relationship with people strictly through online or through texting, right? There's something about being physically present around each other, not only that it draws out um the ability to do the one another's, right? Like the bear one another's burdens, love one another, and so on. But also, you know, sometimes as believers, we, you know, um may annoy each other. And it allows for the ability to practice some of the gentleness and kindness and patience with each other, you know. So when you're not engaged in that, like how do you know if you're growing in those areas, right? So that's kind of the way that I see it. So there is an importance to being gathered together in community, both to bless each other and also to sharpen those edges. Yeah. Um, so you know, we're talking about deconstruction, but some of the things that you had mentioned, it's really interesting because a lot of the reasons why people lately have been leaving the church, they don't like the traditions or the beliefs or the teachings that the church that they grew up in is now teaching. So something that could be a biblical teaching is now considered hateful or um maybe disapproving of something that that they believe. So in fact, um 35%, this from a pew study, 35% of youth adults have switched religions or left religion altogether since childhood, illustrating how common this is um to move away from their faith. Uh 66 this from Lifeweight Research, 66% of young adults who attended a Protestant church regularly as teens stopped attending for at least a year between 18 and 22. So you have that age that goes into college, right? And that's usually when you see this happening. But in your experience, have you seen this both with young? I've seen it a lot with young students. I mean, I work with college students all the time, but I think this was also happening in the older demographic as well. Um, did you see that?

Deconstruction Across Ages And Causes

Stripping Church To Essentials

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah, I think um in fact the people that we've ministered to at our church have have more been from um you know 40s, 40s and 50s demographic. Um in some cases, like the kids grew up and left and then and then they kind of but I think for the kids, the young people, it makes sense. Like I now this is this is kind of my I I can't prove this, but this is kind of my theory and kind of my working hypothesis. I think part of the challenge is um young people get connected to um age specific ministries. Right? They're in children's church, then they're in middle school, then they're in youth. Um and and I think if we're not intentional, they can get connected to those age-specific ministries and never actually connect with the church. Um, and so they hit an age where they no longer can participate in those age appropriate those age-specific ministries, and it usually aligns with the time that they're now moving to a new area because they're gonna go off to college. And so it's almost like they age out of what they understand to be church, um, and because they never actually got connected to the the the corporate collective body as a whole, they just were connected to children's ministry, middle school youth ministry. Um, and and and I'm like middle school youth ministry, those are all good things. Um, but I think we have to be careful that that doesn't become synonymous with church. Um and then and then they get to a place where like, well, I've aged out of what I know to be church, and so I'm going to this new area, and there's no it it's there's no priority in finding another church because I'm not I'm not in church anymore, you know. Um, and so I think that's part of the issue with with that demographic, and and a lot of them tend to come back. They they get older, they get married, they start families, and they find their way back. You really find their way back into church. Um, and and then a lot of the older um later in life people that we've dealt with, it usually comes from some kind of hurt. Yeah. Um, and I would say even myself, like when we started, before we ever started that Bible study that led to Restoration Hill, myself and two other guys for maybe a year. It was a good, it was an extended period of time, but we met once a week at a local coffee shop and we just talked about like what is the church? What is what should a what should corporate worship look like? Um of of kind of what our experience was with church, like what is biblically essential and what is not necessary. And when we started um Restoration Hill, one of the things that we did, um, you know, we said, you know, we're in Lynchburg, tons of good churches. Uh, there's no need to reinvent the wheel. Like, so if we're going to start a church, like what's going to be distinct? Like, why, why, why, why are we going to be how are we going to be different from some of the other good churches in in in town? And one of and what we ended up doing is we we we kind of decided that we wanted to get back to essentials. And so we stripped away, we we we stripped away everything that was not essential. Uh, we got rid of programs, we took everything out of corporate worship that's not um specifically um given in the New Testament. And we embraced like um, I call it historical rather than liturgical because people hear liturgical and they they think uh you know it's boring or stuffy or you know, whatever, but but just a historical approach to worship, which is grounded in formation, yeah, and so the corporate gathering becomes the primary discipleship avenue of the church. Um, and and so and I think what happened is when we stripped all of it away, we stripped the music down to just an acoustic guitar so that the voices of the saints is the primary instrument. Um and rather than rather than the music being really loud so that you don't hear the people around you, so that you can you can kind of get into this one-on-one with you and God, we actually brought the music way down so that you can hear the people around you, and it's and and that becomes the main thing is corporate worship, right? Um, we and so we just kind of thought through how can we redo church in a way that's going to be effective for making disciples and that is going to get rid of the unnecessary thing. I'm not saying bad things, but the things that are are not directly prescribed in scripture that are unnecessary. And I think that return to simplicity and historic worship, I think that's why people who have left the church, who've been hurt by the church when they came to visit, I think it felt it it it felt and looked and seemed so different that they thought, okay, maybe maybe this will be different. Right. Um, it's very um very participatory. So, you know, there's different lay people are doing the the readings of the passages and um officiating the service and we're doing communion every week and um but and you know it's corporate singing and but anyway, so I think um I think I think for the old the more mature groups it's usually people that have been hurt by a leader in the church or by someone in the church, or they went through something in life that the church frowned upon and kind of ushered them out. And uh, and so I think I I think that is often the case with deconstruction, and that's not really a Jesus problem, that's not really a fundamentals of the faith problem. Um, it's uh it's a fallen world, broken people, uh, issue, but it has to be worked through. Um and and I think it takes a lot of patience on the on the side of the the the pastor and the church, you know, to really kind of walk patiently with people, meet them where they are, and allow them to ease back in in their own at their own pace.

Doctrine, Politics, And Division

SPEAKER_01 23:23

Sure, sure. And and that makes a lot of sense too, because when you have been hurt, um there's hesitancy there, and there's a lot of questions, and a lot of those questions sometimes don't go answered, right? Um I know most of what we've discussed has been when the person has been hurt by the church. Have you seen or encountered people who leave because they now don't like the teachings of the church? So I've seen people who walk away because you know they don't agree with maybe Jesus being the only way. Like that seems offensive to them because they want to be more open or that's what they were shared with in college, whatever the case is. Um, but have you seen those experiences? You know, they both have a different impact. One seems to be a little bit more cognitive, right? That what do I believe about God and Jesus and the Bible and so on, and the other one's more relational. So touching on the relational, where we kind of have a sense of, yeah, they've been hurt, whether someone said something about them, someone did something in the church. And there's a lot of research actually that shows that a lot of people left because of a lot of different things, including politics, hypocrisy, abuse, even unexplored doubts. Um, but on the other side of the theological understanding, this is why I wanted to talk a little bit about doctrine, how important it is, you know, do you see that where people just they stop agreeing with the teachings of scripture, specifically when it comes to um living, living a Christ-like life? I do.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

I now I I do in some of those cases, I still think often that kind of if you kind of peel back and get to the room, but there are times where people just change their worldview. Um they change their change their perspective. Um and and perhaps that happens when they go off to college and and they're introduced to different ideas and and they they um you know they begin to question. Um and questioning is okay. Like, like, like Jesus can handle your questions. It's okay to um to struggle. Um when we when we lean into him and we and we grow. But um I but yeah, I do think I think politics is a is a is a challenge. Um I think there's an it bears itself out in the political sphere, but ult uh under Gerding, I think there's like a there's a there's a spiritual pragmatism where we just we adopt an i uh a mindset of um you know the ends justify the means or um and and I think when we do that it it it can it can it can cause problems and then of course just the division in our society around um around politics is really hard. So you know you kind of you you you get you're you're persuaded of this right view or this left view or whatever it is, um, and then we get so dogmatic about it that uh on both sides and and and in churches as well, but we get so dogmatic about it that you just I can't be part of this church anymore because they don't they don't agree with this. Um there are there are like non-negotiables in the Christian faith, um, but there's actually that it's actually not that many, relatively speaking. There's a lot of things that you can be dead wrong on and still be a Christian. Um there's a lot of things that we can disagree on and still love one another and worship uh and and and serve the Lord together. Um but I I just in our society we get so divided over those things that uh you do see people that will um in our area if they if they develop a more left-leaning political view, they'll walk, you know, there's they'll walk away from the church that they're in. And it probably happens, maybe it happens the other direction too. I see it more in that direction. Um and and so yeah, I think you're right. I mean, it's certainly it's it's not just oh, it's everybody's been hurt and it's just that's it. Um but I do think even in the cases where doctrine changes, um there's there's a reality where there's probably some underlying issue there as well. At least in my the in my anecdotal experience.

Defining Deconstruction And Reconstruction

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Sure, sure, yeah. And you know, one thing I guess to to clarify for the audience is when we talk about deconstructing, we're talking about um not just the questioning of one's faith, but questioning and then abandoning one's faith and trying to start over. Would you agree with that definition?

SPEAKER_00 28:14

Yeah, so I think like deconstruction, I think if it leads to right reconstruction, can be a good thing. Um if it leads to um deconversion or a a kind of created kind of new version of Christianity that you've kind of created that that fits, checks all your boxes and and is not biblically faithful, then that's obviously a problem. Um but I I think there's I think there are you know, even even if we just say general, like when you raise your kids, right, when they're little, they are they are functioning largely on your faith.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Right?

SPEAKER_00 29:05

They love you, they trust you, you tell them this, they believe it, right? Um, but at some point in life, they have to grow and mature to a point, and their faith has to become their own. And that generally requires some questioning, some doubt, some kind of wrestling. Um, it's often brought about by some type of uh hardship, um, but they ultimately come to a place where it's now firmly their faith. Um, and and I think of deconstruction somewhat like that. Like uh if it if it's if if someone has questions, they've been hurt, um, they they they were taught one thing and now they're seeing, hey, there's maybe this other way of viewing this, and and they're kind of wrestling through those ideas. Um it can be scary, uh, especially if it's your someone you care about. Um, but if they come out the other side and they and they and and they're grounded and they love Jesus and they're serving him, even if we don't see eye to eye on some of those secondary issues, even even if we think they're they're wrong in tertiary issues, um, or they don't vote the right way, or you know, whatever. Um, that's a good thing, though, if they're if they're firmly grounded in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

Um you're saying my beliefs are not gonna carry on my beliefs that I taught them that I want them to carry on.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Well, they will largely, they will largely. Um most likely. Um but but yeah, they're definitely gonna have some opinions that well they they'll probably have some opinions that you may not like. Sure. But largely they will, they generally it tends to go that way. They'll follow, they'll follow what you've instilled in them. Um but my but back to the deconstruction, I think so I think I think it's that's those generally aren't the ones that we hear about though. Yeah. The ones that we hear about are the ones that just kind of go way off the rails, and and and but I I don't know, I'm completely ignorant. This is not my area of expertise, but I just wonder, like, is that the majority, or is it just the loud minority? Um, you know, I think there's a lot like like the we wouldn't call it deconstruction, maybe, but there's always been people wrestling with their faith and wrestling through and figuring out do I really believe this? Um and that that's always gonna be there. And it and again, it can be a good thing. Um but when it when it results in you know, walking away from the um the faith is obviously a problem. And I think it's a problem when it results in walking away from the church. Like there's a there's a maybe it's not so much deconstruction, but there's just a mindset is I want I'm part of the universal body of Christ, but I'm never again gonna be part of a local church. Uh and I get I I mean, look, I get that, but that that's a foreign concept. Like that, you don't see that anywhere in the New Testament. That's true. Um everything you see in the New Testament is Paul planning a church, leaving Timothy, Titus, Apollos, uh, Silas, leaving men behind to put things in order and appoint elders, and then every letter is written back to the body in that in that city, right? Um and so it's just assumed that if you're in the universal, then you're in the local. Right. There's there's just no there's no framework in the New Testament that you can be in one and not the other. Um, and so I see I think that's where we see a lot of um, I don't know if we call it deconstruction, but a lot of people are like, yeah, I still love Jesus, but I I have no use for his bride. Um, and and I think that's not a that's not a biblically faithful position. I get it, and I think you have to give people space to work through that, but ultimately that's not a biblically viable position. No, I agree with that.

Celebrity Conversions And Fruit

SPEAKER_01 33:43

You know, as as you were as you were mentioning that, um I was thinking about so we talked about reasons why people may deconstruct, we talk about potential hurt, and even touch a little bit on beliefs. So for those who are listening, what are some warning signs where they're deconstructing to the point of leaving the faith? So, for example, we talked about some core key doctrines that probably would be a yellow flag, maybe a red flag, that, hey, you know, you're in a really dangerous spot here where, okay, it's okay to ask questions about your faith, but to deny the virgin birth of Christ or to say that I have no need for the local church, like what would you say are maybe three or four key doctrines or teachings that if people are asking questions about him and are really rejecting those, that that would be like a red flag, yellow flag type situation.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Yeah. Well, I mean, of course, anytime we someone's uh rejecting the fundamentals about Jesus, then then we've got like serious problems, right? Um, you know, his virgin birth, his sinless life, his atoning death, his resurrection, his physical, bodily resurrection, his ascension, his set, his return. Like these are all things that are like if if you lose, if you don't hold to them, you can't be a Christian. Right? These are these are fundamentals. Um when you start getting into, you know, can can women be pastors, like I have an opinion on that. I have I have I have a biblically informed view on that. But if someone is if I'm if I'm completely wrong in my view, it doesn't alter anything about what I think about Jesus. It's important, it's important for church, local church ministry, but that's not something if someone is wrestling through that, and even if they come out and and they end up with what I would argue is not the right position, it doesn't it doesn't change their faith. Right. Um there's a lot of there's a lot of those. Right. We might not be able to be members of the same church, but they're gonna we're we're going to be together in glory. We're gonna be in the presence of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03 36:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:01

Um and and so like it's the one it's just those fundamentals things that those handful of really like foundational doctrines, the the apostles' creed, the Nicene Creed, like those core um foundation things. Um if people start letting go of those, then you're you're letting go of Christianity. Um the other stuff, you know, if if if you know homosexuality, uh women in women's women's roles, um charismatic gifts, like like you could you can run the gamut, and I'm not saying the gifts that are equal all through I'm not saying all three of those things are equal, uh, but just I'm just throwing out things, but you can run the gamut, you can be wrong about all those things. And if you're right about Jesus, you're a Christian. Now, there's obviously discipleship implications and and church ministry and you know serving in the church, and like there's they're important and there's things there. But to me, like the big red flags are when you start questioning who Jesus is and who that and and kind of the found fundamentals of the faith. Um, and then the other things, like, you know, if it's your if it's your 20-year-old and they've got some ideas and they're hanging on to Jesus, but they've kind of strayed into these other areas that you think they're wrong in. Um, like they might be wrong for a season and then maybe they'll come back around. Like maybe they're wrong forever. Yeah. Um, but if but if they're hanging on to Jesus, like that that that's what's important.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Okay. No, that's that's good to know. You know, um not that I struggle with this or but it's a question that I do have for you. You know, one of the things you mentioned earlier that um people often, if they leave the church when they were younger, they'll come back later on and they'll, you know, um, yeah, come back to their faith and say, hey, I believe in Jesus and so on. And um one of my it's a pet peeve, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with this, but it's a pet peeve of mine when big, whether it be movie stars, uh fighters, you know, athletes, whatever the case is, when they come out and and they say, you know, you know, um, you know, I'm a Christian, I love Jesus, and you know, I I want to make him known. They don't share the gospel or anything, they just kind of just say, I'm a Christian, right? And I know people were not to judge their belief if it's right or wrong or if they've actually made that decision, but it it almost um because someone makes that public declaration in a sense or they call themselves a Christian, that automatically a lot of Christians oh get really excited about oh, so and so just became a and I always hesitate, I cringe a little bit because if they're just now making that decision, give it some time. I mean, it happened with a lot of these stars. So if you remember Kanye West or Justin Bieber or all these guys who were really pushing, and it was like a little, not a movement, but it was a real popular thing to say, I'm a Christian in the public sphere, right? And uh yeah, I'm just curious what your thoughts are on that because I think a lot of maybe new Christians or even old Christians will start to look at that and say, Oh, okay, well, so and so said they're a Christian, and you know how look how they're living their life, and so I guess that's that's okay, you know. So yeah, and it's almost like they're not also getting the teaching or the discipleship that you mentioned on who Jesus is and what it actually means to follow him. So they make these statements, they get applauded for it, and then as you give it time, it just starts to break down. And I don't know what you attribute that to or what you would say that is, um, is the cause of that, but I think discipleship is obviously a key factor there.

Ambassadors, Witness, And Responsibility

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah, no, I I I agree. Like I I um I mean, cards on the table, I really like that Kanye album that he did. Um and uh but then he like it in a very short period of time completely went off the road. Oh, just went off the road. No, I think there's some mental health issues there, I think, as well. But um, but but to your point, like yeah, you you you you rush out to elevate these people and then and then it just blows up. And and so I don't know. I think part of it is I think it just maybe it's just human nature in general, like like we want, we get excited when uh quote unquote important people are on our side. You know, we want to um and I think even like you know, if if we look at the New Testament, right? If we were now it's a I I refer to it as a story, it's it's a narrative, obviously it's true. Um, but if we were writing this story, right, God God's crafting this, this, this whole narrative of scripture, right? If we were writing a story, who would we send Jesus? Who would Jesus reach with the gospel? He would reach the religious leaders, he would, he'd probably convert Pilate, and then Pilate would somehow he'd get to Caesar, and like we would write it that way, right? We would have him, he would go in and he would win the the the high priest would come to Jesus and then all the people would come to Jesus, and then Rome would bow down, and that's how we would write it. Um how but how did God orchestrate it, right? I preached through um I preached through Micah this um fall. Um, I preached to a few of the minor prophets now, but something that caught my attention is in Micah, he talks about the remnant, and he says that the remnant will consist of the same. And you get and so you you kind of read over it, you don't think a lot about it, but he he's talking about when they come back into the land, there's gonna be this remnant that God's gonna preserve, and it's gonna be made up of the lame, the broken, the weak. And you get to the gospels, and what do you see going happening in Jesus' ministry? Who's coming to him? The lame, the sick, the outcast, the prostitutes, the tax collectors. None of the people that we would if we were writing it, like we would not have had it happen that way. And so I think it's I think maybe it's just a it's just a human nature thing, but you know, if we see a big, famous, influential celebrity or sports person or politician, and they say anything remotely favorable to Jesus, we just kind of like climb all over ourselves to elevate them. And then it almost always always comes back to bite us.

SPEAKER_01 42:48

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the big thing is that it it it influences so many other people as well, you know. It influences those who see maybe their idol who makes that decision. Oh, I want to follow Jesus too, if my idol is doing that as well, you know. So it was just one of those things where I'm like, yeah, what's missing there? So what's missing is to your point earlier, uh this someone who's discipling them. Okay, so once those people become saved, who's gonna disciple that person? And what does that look like? And it's just leading people into teaching who Jesus is and how to live like he did. Um, and uh yeah, and to your point again, also about the relationship piece, you know, having that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, well, and and if we go to the scriptures, right? Um, it's very clear to me in scripture that the assurance of salvation comes from fruit, right? It's not because I have a date written down in the front of my Bible of the day I repeated a prayer. Sure, right? That I'm not I'm not saying that I'm not saying negatively, but like that's not the assurance of my salvation that I said a prayer one time. The assurance of my salvation. According to scripture, is that I have consistent, visible fruit. Um, and so disciples produce fruit, right? And so I think when we see these people that make these professions, I you I think you're exactly right. We we need to give them time and space to to bear fruit, and then that becomes the evidence that they're the real deal, that they're a genuine follower of Christ. And to your point, I think you're right. And I think I think I think it's harmful when we do it in with celebrities. I think it's harmful when we do it with politicians.

SPEAKER_02 44:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:41

When we, you know, they kind of throw the church a bone, and then we elevate them as this great Christian, and then you know, then they go do something else. Um I think I think we would be far better off to just pray and vote and and you know, not elevate um leaders to to like super Christian status. Right. They always they seem to always disappoint us. Yeah, yeah. And not only and not only us, but then the people not to get off on a little tangent, but this has kind of been my thing. Like, I it and it could be movie stars, it could be sports people. I think in our context, often it's politicians. But my challenge has been like, I really don't care who you vote for, like pray and vote for who you think is gonna do the most net good, right? Um, but if you're gonna get out there and really advocate for somebody and you're gonna portray them as being the Christian candidate, the only viable option, if you're gonna be really vocal about that, then when they do things that aren't biblical, you need to also publicly say, okay, I supported this person, I supported her, I supported him, and but this is not this is not okay with Jesus. Because the problem is, whether it's sports people, movie stars, politicians, we elevate them, and to your point, we move on, then they go off and do all kinds of bad stuff, and all the people that we elevated them to that remember what we said, well, they're now associating that those actions with the Lord and his church. And so I think if we're gonna be, if we're gonna elevate those people when they make those statements and professions, then we have to be equally diligent to set the record straight when they when they flaw and don't and misrepresent Jesus. Um otherwise we are we're putting ourselves in a position to undermine the mission of the church. Because we're we're putting ourselves in a position to lead people astray. Right? If I lift you up, I mean you wouldn't do this, but say there's a guy we know, and we lift him up as being a believer, and then he starts preaching heresy.

unknown 47:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Like the people that we that we pointed him out to, we have a responsibility to those people to go and say, hey, hey, I I know I told you this guy was legit, but no, he's this is wrong. And don't follow, don't listen to this. This is not and and I think it's the same way whether it's um some random person that we know, or if it's you know, ABC uh celebrity or sports player or you know, whatever. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. I just really big one, I think that I think I think the church's mission. Yeah, Paul Paul used the language of ambassador. I don't want to, we won't get into a whole big thing, but I think the idea of us as God's image bearers, all right, in Genesis 1, is humanity was created to to be God's representative people. We were created to to be the people through which he rules and reigns over his creation. Now, obviously, you get the fall and that gets marred, but the whole rest of the narrative of scripture, like that's what Israel is supposed to do. They go into the land and they're to be God's representative people, a kingdom of priests. Um Exodus um 19, 4, I think. They're supposed to be king, a kingdom of priests, they're to go into the land and represent the lower. And the way they do that is by being faithful to him and by living according to the Torah. And if they will live according to the Torah, and they will faithfully worship Yahweh, then the nations are gonna be drawn in. So the whole point is you're gonna, I'm gonna put you in this land, you're gonna be my representative people, and you and if you if you faithfully represent me, then I'm gonna draw the nation. The nations are gonna stream to Jerusalem, right? And and they're gonna be they're gonna be saved. Now, what happens is instead of representing the Lord well, they become like the nations. Um, and they start worshiping and becoming like the gods of the nations, and so they're exiled. Well, I think I think the church is the same thing, right? Paul calls us ambassadors, we're God's representative people. So we are called to live as exiles in this world in such a way that we reflect the character and example of Jesus into the world so that the nations will take notice and be drawn to the Lord, right? And so if that's true, then once I make that public profession of faith, everything I do is now reflecting on Jesus, right? So say that you say the US sends an ambassador to China, right? Um, he goes to China, he represents all of us, he represents the entire country, and if he does something that that uh dishonors or offends the Chinese, then it doesn't just affect him personally, it affects what he's representing, right? And we are Christ ambassadors, so when we when we go out into the world, we are we are to manifest uh his character and example into the world. And so when we start hooking our wagons to things that misrepresent him or that that dishonor him, then we have made ourselves his enemy. We've put ourselves in opposition to his purposes, we are now misrepresenting him and undermining the work that he's trying to do. So it's really important, I think, that we as the church are careful to like you don't get you never get a day off, right? The ambassador in China, like he doesn't get to take Sunday off and go out and do whatever he wants and act act act like a fool. He's always on, he's always representing the the country. And if we are the representative people of God, like we don't get to take a day off. Everything we do, everything we say, every interaction we have with people is a representation of him. And that's like a really heavy responsibility to carry, but I think that's the right way to under I think that's I think that's the right way to understand uh the way the church is supposed to engage the world.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Yeah. No, that's a really good illustration. I really like that a lot. Um yeah, well, sir, as we get to the near of our of our interview here, um, what would you have to say it just as a you know parting message to those who are struggling with deconstruction or struggling with the church? Um maybe people who want to come back to the church but don't know how. Like, what would you say to them?

SPEAKER_02 52:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

So I I I I do think corporate worship is is essential. Like, and I think it's one of those things where um it it's an act of faith, right? I'm in faith, I'm going to gather with God's people and I'm going to go through these spiritual practices, and I'm going to trust that if I do, God is going to do a work in me, uh, in and shaping me and forming me into his image. And so if that's true, you have to be there to benefit from it. Right. And so I understand like there's a time for mourning, there's a time when people get hurt, there's a time for healing, uh, and and maybe stepping away for a season is a is a good healthy thing. But if you are a follower of Jesus, you are called to be part of his body, right? Uh a hand severed from the rest of the body off on its own can't do anything. In order for it to function, it has to be attached to the arm. Right. I would add that they would want to ultimately be part of the body as well, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I I again I I it's a process for people. Uh, but yeah, ultimately you have to in faith go. Like do your research, ask around, talk to a friend. But in at some point in faith, you have to go and gather. Um, and and and you don't you don't look for the church that checks all your boxes of all the things that you want. Right. You go and and you find the church, you find the church that needs your gifts, and you plug them in. I preached in First Corinthians this past Sunday, and it says um, together we have all that is needed, right? And so not no one person has all of the gifts. And so when when you bring your gifts and I bring my gifts, and and you know, my wife brings her gifts and our neighbor brings their gifts, when that we all come together, then we have everything that we need. But when we're off on our own, we're lacking, right? So yeah, that would be my encouragement is at some point, like take your time, heal, mourn, um, work through, but at some point you've got to re-engage. Yeah. Um, and and and trust that when you do, God will grow and mature you in ways beyond what you're currently experiencing.

Closing And Listener Invitation

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Well, that's good, sir. That's really good. Well, Patrick, thank you again for doing this interview. I really appreciate your time, sir. I'm sure that this episode is going to be a blessing to many people. I'll let you know when it comes out. And for those of you guys who are listening, please feel free to leave a review and share this episode with others who are probably experiencing the same thing. Thank you for tuning in. I'll talk to you guys next time.