Understanding Spiritual Abuse And Religious Trauma w/ Carley Marcouillier

Ever been told to “just get over it” when church wounds still ache in your body? We sit down with therapist Carley Marcouillier to unpack spiritual abuse and religious trauma with clarity and compassion—naming how coercion, control, and scripture misuse can fracture trust in God and community. Instead of dismissing pain as church hurt, we explore a fuller frame: trauma as harm plus the absence of an empathic witness, and why validation is the first doorway to healing.

We contrast moralism with a restorative gospel that invites honest return after failure, not fear-driven compliance. From addressing sin and relationships to identifying spiritual bypassing masked as quick-fix Bible verses, we share practical ways to create safety without abandoning truth. Carley offers a trauma-informed lens leaders and laypeople can use: prioritize agency, practice attunement, and cultivate a witness posture that favors presence over outcomes. We also highlight safeguards like elder-led accountability and clear responses to harm that center the vulnerable rather than protect power.

What does a healthier church culture look like? One where belonging doesn’t require compliance, where lament is welcome, and where leaders model humility and repair. We draw on stories, research, and therapeutic insights to help you discern patterns, ask better questions, and rebuild a more faithful imagination of God’s character—both loving and just. If you’ve carried wounds from high-control environments, or you lead and want to do no harm, this conversation offers language, tools, and hope.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend, and leave a review to help more people find a path toward healing.

Follow Carley on IG @carleymarcouillier and also @edenholisticcounseling_lyh for more helpful information. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome Back And Guest Reintroduction
• 0:46 Carly’s Story And Calling
• 3:22 Church Culture, Judgment, And Grace
• 4:55 Why “Church Hurt” Minimizes Harm
• 7:50 Defining Trauma And Empathic Witness
• 10:25 Features Of Spiritual Abuse And Family Systems
• 13:41 Control, Autonomy, And Power In Churches
• 15:02 Addressing Sin With Agency And Relationship
• 19:03 Moralism Versus A Restorative Gospel
• 22:29 Healthy Church Responses To Harm
• 26:05 Spiritual Bypassing And Holding Pain
• 29:10 Trauma‑Informed Ministry And Witness Posture
• 33:00 Curiosity, Attunement, And Next Steps

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the Gotta Testament Healing podcast. As you have seen and noticed, there's been a lot of injuries that I've been doing these last couple of weeks. It's been a full January. December was a nice little little break from everything, but January has been nice and full. And by the time you probably watch this episode or listen to it, it'll probably be late January or early February. So we're just moving right along. And I'm excited because today I have a previous guest who came on uh maybe at the end of last year. It's Carly Marculier. I remember the saying it. And we're talking about a very important topic. This is this is a topic that I have always been interested in because there's so many layers to it. And growing up in the church and hearing church uh stories about church hurt and so on. Um yeah, I mean, now as a counselor, it's really provided kind of a different lens, different perspective. And um yeah, this is on Carly's heart as well. Carly, you mentioned this was something close to your heart as well. And um, yeah, would you mind, I guess, as I always open up, just sharing a little bit about yourself and um yeah, why you're interested in this topic.

SPEAKER_00: 1:19

Yeah. Um, well, thank you for having me back. I'm really glad to be here. Um, I I specialize in attachment trauma and specifically in this kind of realm of spirituality and psychology. And I've been really drawn to the work of spiritual abuse recovery just from my own history and background, growing up in a pretty um conservative um culture and community, and kind of having a really unique view of my my family structure wasn't as um I would say conservative as the groups I was involved in, if that makes sense. So I kind of got to see both sides, um, but was certainly absorbing a lot of that messaging and through my own work and story, really recognizing the God of Scripture um being so different than maybe some of the messaging of the more high-controlled religious circles I was involved in. Um, and so that really helped me break out and be able to um understand right the the love that God had for me and the freedom found in Christ. And um, and through that, you know, this healing journey is so multifaceted and holistic as a therapist now, getting to sit with clients. Um and you know, some people come and they're like, I don't really want to talk about spirituality, and that's completely fine. And what I tend to notice, and we can we tend to come to eventually is that everybody has some story about their spiritual experience and whether that be positive or negative or mixed. Um, and so for me, this has been kind of the intersection of our stories and our spirituality kind of collide and they tell something about how it shaped us, right? And so that's something that I'm really passionate about, holding space for um naming harm, naming the ways in which um spirituality and religious contexts have maybe done more harm than good, but then also restoring the goodness of a loving God who moves towards us in our suffering and our rookenness. And so um, like this idea of reconstruction and um new imagination is something that I'm really passionate about from like a healing perspective. So just a little bit about what I love doing, and so that's why I'm grateful to be here to talk a little bit more about it.

SPEAKER_02: 3:38

Yeah, yeah, this is great. I mean, most of our um uh the listeners are Christian, they've gone to church, they've experienced some level of church hurt, and I'll ask you a little bit about that because I know you had some comments on that. But um, yeah, they're they're listening and they're wanting to see, and you know, part of the reason why I did this uh podcast was to help, yeah, restore and maybe reframe how they view God. Because yeah, you either you either grew up in a church culture that was either preached a very judgmental, furious, angry God, and then you have another where um maybe only grace was preached and love, but not the truth and justice part. So usually I see where those two intersect, and they're both they both don't have the full picture, right? Which is where we arrive is that okay, if I landed over here, I need to see the the great, loving, and patient God that I wasn't exposed to when I was growing up. And for those on this side, they need to see that other part. Well, God also has standards, he also has truth, and he also wants us to live rightly. But how do you mesh those two? And hopefully we can get through that um as we have our discussion today. But um, yeah, well, Carly, let's start with the first question. I know before we started this conversation, um, we were talking a little bit about um, you know, how do we address this topic? We talk about church hurt, and you said, you know, the language that I like to use around church hurt can be either spiritual abuse or religious trauma because you think it captures it more. Did I get that right? You could correct me if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00: 5:15

Yeah. Yeah. And the reason if I can expound on that a little bit is because um historically, I would say that um using you know church hurt um is a way that some, some, not all, but some churches, some um faith communities, religious communities have attempted to um minimize the impact of of the experience of individuals. And so I've I've seen and I've read and I've heard um even pastors, you know, say things like, you know, the church didn't hurt you, people did. Okay. Now, is that necessarily all incorrect? Probably not, but what it kind of communicates oftentimes is that we should just be like get over like get over it, right? It kind of dismisses the experience. And um my my heart in this is to be able to say, can we just hold space for someone's experience, even if we maybe disagree? Because something that we'll talk about hopefully today is drama is so perception-based. And so who am I to say that it wasn't traumatic for you? Um, and I think being able to hold a humility, especially in places of power when we're if we're sitting in this place of like, I'm, you know, I'm in ministry, I'm holding a position within a religious context. Um the idea of being able to hold space for someone's experience, whether it be negative or positive or however whatever language they're using to describe it, could be really helpful for those that are wounded. So I I tend to lean towards um the advocacy part of me is very much like, let's be gentle with this topic for those who have truly been um very wounded by it. And and that's just kind of like a soft edge, I think, for me. But again, people will have their own experiences and perceptions of it, and that's okay. But I'm hopeful today that we can maybe dive into the essence of spiritual trauma and just look at how um complex it is within the religious context and why um it really does impact us in, I believe, in in a in a way that is um really, really damaging um if if left untreated and then if dismissed on top of that by religious communities.

SPEAKER_02: 7:35

Yeah, no, absolutely. And um remind me again that you grew up in the church, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 7:41

Yes, I did. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 7:42

So so for us who grew up in the church, oftentimes, especially if we start serving and we get part of maybe some administrative teams or whatever the case is, you you see a lot of these different things, right? And at first it's kind of like, well, I'm part of the team and I'm seeing what's happening here. So is is that is that right? Is that okay? Like there's something off about that, but it's kind of like, okay, well, I guess it's okay. And then you see another thing happening, and then another thing happen, and it's like, is this how it's supposed to be? So you start asking all these questions, right? But I guess for to help the audience kind of see and know what we're talking about. So, what do you mean when you say spiritual um or religious trauma?

SPEAKER_00: 8:22

Yeah, so I think it's helpful to, if I can, just give the brief definition of what trauma is because it connects. So Peter Levine has a great definition of trauma, and he's a clinical psychologist, and he he defines trauma as trauma is not what happened to us, it's not the event or the development of a series of events, but it's what we hold inside our bodies, our minds, in the absence of an empathic witness. And that that phrase empathic witness is something that is so vital because other um therapists in the field of trauma would say trauma is twofold. It is harm plus a lack of an empathic witness. So when we're thinking about trauma as a whole, it's not just the harm done because we can think about like event traumas or even individual traumas, relational traumas. And if we can have harm done, someone can stand with us and be like, that was wrong, right? In the midst of it, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes the um traumatization of it is not as stored in our bodies because we had someone there to witness, to name, right, and to to help us um move through that in a way that was supportive. And so what I'm when we think about religious trauma and or spiritual trauma, these are interchangeable, um it it's trauma that we hold inside, right, in the absence of an empathic witness that occurs in spiritual contexts. So religious systems, Christian families of origin, this could be, you know, the what we're raised in. And an example of this might be the belief that like God will leave me or punish me if I do something wrong. So that's just like an example. But if we think about that on a large scale, and we grew up with this, it can actually create intense somatic and mental health dysregulation, especially if we've grown up in um like context where it's kind of glorified to really hate yourself or to think of yourself so lowly that you're unlovable, right? And I think it's Dr. Dr. Hillary McBride. Um, she says she says spiritual abuse is whenever you're told you're really it's really, really good to believe you're really, really bad. And so this is the again, like you were talking about earlier, the extreme where we're almost demonizing the divine in a sense that it's weaponizing right divinity and associating God with almost this is this abuser stance, or um like he's the one holding the sledgehammer ready to harm us, right? And that that in itself is super traumatizing for especially children, because a lot of us grew up in the myths, right? So our our belief of this is um developmental. So to go back to like the definition, right? Thinking about the the context of harm done, and this can be abuse of any kind. So when we think about um harm, right, that's a really broad category, and we can talk more about that if you want to. Moral injury versus hurt or harm versus abuse, the you know, event trauma, one time occurrence versus multiple times, but whatever form of harm it is, it's it's in the context of a religious um family or religious system. And oftentimes within that system, God is almost um reflected back as a dismissive party in it. Either God is absent to it, or there's kind of some um, you know, God is okay with this, or it's like for God, right? Like we're suffering for God or something like that. And so we see this in a lot of different ways, and I can talk more about that, but that's the primary definition that I like to use in my work with clients and individuals, just recognizing that it any harm done to an individual um in the in the name of or in the context of a spiritual environment.

SPEAKER_02: 12:18

Yeah, yeah. No, that's a really good definition. I was looking up some other things that can kind of indicate to people that it could um be spiritual abuse, religious trauma. And they did a study in Bournemouth University, and they looked at key features that included coercion and control, manipulate manipulation and pressure, misuse of scripture. That's a big one that we talked about, and then providing a divine rationale for harmful behavior, kind of what you were mentioning earlier, right? Like, oh, there's a reason why you're experiencing this. And you know, as you were talking about the different layers too, there's the church and then there's the parents. And both of those spiritual authorities or figures in the person's life, they're both communicating the same message because parents go to the church, they take the teachings of that church, they implement those teachings of that church. So it's kind of this this whole cycle, right, of the same messaging, and that's what starts to uh fester in our minds and grow. So yeah, so this is really, really deep. And we don't know how long they stay there, probably till they're 18, maybe a little bit older. But yeah, I mean, we grew up in in this uh type of teaching, and it really misinforms or doesn't give us the full picture, or maybe maybe just not even a clear picture, a good picture of who got rid of the.

SPEAKER_00: 13:34

Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And to that end, oh sorry, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02: 13:39

No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00: 13:41

No, I was just gonna say something that you named there that I had written some on in my notes for this too, is just like control being at the center of any abusive system. And and and really it whenever there's any sort of system, and specifically whenever we think about a religious or faith community having any sort of um uh liking to uh restricting autonomy, restricting choice, restricting personal power, we we need to get curious about what's happening there, right? Like that there's something happening if if it's um if we can't just let someone choose for themselves. Whether that is to or not to engage with, right, the truth that we're holding. I think that sometimes that can be really difficult, especially if you're in a system that tells you you have to or else. And it for a lot of people, it's um it's actually like a saving thing. It's like we're so concerned about you. We need you, right? We need you to do this, this one thing, right? Or live this way. And sometimes that out of I hope I I try to hold the space for like maybe it's out of a good intention, but it still can be controlling or this um language of controlling behavior. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 14:50

Yeah, yeah. You know, Carly, I was thinking, I wonder how what your perspective is when a sin is being addressed, um, whether that be at an interpersonal level. So whether it be a brother or sister seeing sin in someone else's life, addressing it, or if it's from the pastor just preaching from the pulpit, addressing a specific sin. Um, there are people, and I've and I have seen this and heard this where they'll say, oh, you know, that was the fact that they're addressing or pointing this out in my life, it's none of their business. So there's that perspective as well. Like, how do you how do you view um this aspect of addressing sin? Because there is this element of, okay, hey, I'm worried about you. There's this sin in your life. You know, what can we do? Like, how do you help that uh person when they are going through sin? We want to have give people choice, but how do you also address something that they're doing that is sinning against God?

SPEAKER_00: 15:47

Yeah, so this is a very complex question to answer shortly. So I will do my best. Um, I don't really love starting with sin, but but we'll we can, for the sake of this conversation, name the fact that people in general don't really like being told what to do, especially if we don't have a place in their in their life. So my first my first um movement would be uh when we're thinking about building community or we're thinking about relationships. So obviously, if you're coming to a church and you're sitting in a pew and you're hearing something you don't like from the pastor, I would just stay curious about it. Um, but if I'm a friend that sees another friend struggling with something, my first movement might be to ask if that friend would like some input. To ask permission to speak in on what I'm noticing, I think is a really um something that is one provides choice, it to recognizes whether or not that person is willing and wanting. Because if we're thinking about spiritual formation in this way, um, there's something about agency that's really important. We can talk, we can tell people about their sin until we're blue in the face. And yet they might not listen if they're not in a place to listen. And so there's two different sides to this, though, because I want to really name the fact that if you're being sinned against, right? If this is like a relational issue, someone is harming you, that's very different. I'm what I want to make sure we're speaking on is the fact that like if I'm just seeing someone doing something that I I'm naming as sin, right?

SPEAKER_01: 17:20

Sure.

SPEAKER_00: 17:20

Um, in their own life, then I'm wondering what it might look like. And I would love your thoughts on this, Sam, to be able to say, um, first, let me ask if it's my place. Let me go to the Holy Spirit, like, let me ask the Holy Spirit, let me discern whether or not it's time to move towards this person in love. Um, and then I might go to that person and say, Hey, I've been I've been thinking about you and praying for you. Is it, you know, are you open to me sharing some things with you? And what I think that does is one, it takes the defensiveness down, right? And then two, I think it opens someone up to notice like if you're wanting and willing to be in community, which is um what we we are in the family of God if we're moving towards each other in community, then there's a there's a beautiful and healthy place for what we would call correction. But I do believe, and I I'm curious about your thoughts on this, um, there's been a lot of harm done in the name of correction, in the name of quote unquote helping people. And um it can become at times very um savior complex oriented. And I I I would speak for my own parts in saying that like there are parts of me that want to help people and save people from the the consequences of of things, right? And at the same time, I'm learning continually that like I want to move towards those people and offer an option, um, some thoughts, some what I'm hearing, you know. Uh but at the end of the day, I I want to give them choice to be able to receive that or not. I don't know what your thoughts are on that, but that's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:54

No, I think it's a great point. I think um the specific one that you mentioned about having a place in their lives, I think that makes a big difference. Like, who am I if I'm not close to them, if I don't really know what they're going through, what's going on. Um, but if I have that, I think we've established that like let we're talking about someone that you do have a relationship with. You are these things, it is a concern for you. Um is yeah, how do you bring that up? Um, I don't know if there's like um there's it's the way in how we approach it, right? I I think it's it's really that's the heart, right? How do how am I gonna address this thing? It's not easy. There's some people, here's what I grew up with. There was people who wanted to address her, that was like their job. They felt like they had to address every single little thing, and every person's like, I'm doing things right. That that's not healthy. It's like the person who wants to discipline their kids all of the time. Like you're doing something wrong if you have it all of the time, right? Um you're addressing these things. You have team concern, you have examples, you and you want to um, and I think most obviously most of the people that I Would share something with were guys. We are very direct and it can be harsh at times. Um, but it almost at least when I was growing up, it felt like that was like the wake-up call where it's like, oh, I have three of my closest friends that are telling me I need to change this stuff because I'm really messing with my life here, whether it be drugs, sex, alcohol, whatever the case was. It was it was clear things. And um, yeah, and and some of them came back and said thank you, and others left. And I think that goes back to that point you're making about choice. So ultimately it is their choice. What you don't want is to continually be trying to change this person's mind when you've done it once or twice, kind of following the Matthew 18 rule, right? Do the competition first, you bring other brothers, do it again, and then at that time, then you just, you know, let them be, let them make their decision. So that's kind of how I've approached it growing up. Um and I think that's the other part of it too, is that you know that if you do these things, you want to come at it with the right heart. You don't want to be harsh. I think that's the part that I think hurts a lot of people. It's the harshness piece. That you're harsh when you bring these things up, which puts you in this elevated state of I'm better than you because I'm addressing something in your life, and I have the right to just kind of condemn you. The condemning piece maybe is that part, which is what I see in churches who do practice, kind of not practice, what's the word that I'm looking for, who have um do spiritual abuse or create some sort of trauma in someone else's life. They're very harsh. So that's what I've seen. Um how's that been for you?

SPEAKER_00: 21:37

Like any experiences like that or yeah, I I feel really tender towards um um just naming people's in general, just like naming people's struggles for them and and really being curious about like what what need is that meeting, right? Like, can we get curious beyond um the label that the church would put on it and and and that's a whole different podcast episode if we were gonna like talk about sin? Um, but I think that I think it's a good conversation to have because I think that's where we get stuck in a lot of faith communities about making sure that people don't sin. And I'm curious about that because for me, my upbringing really ingrained be good, just be good. And and and the maybe implicit message of that is don't sin. And what I wish someone would have said to me as a child growing up is not don't sin, but when you sin, when you make mistakes, because we do, when you want something that isn't maybe good for your body, or when right sin is such a relational word, and and it's about right, like put like harm, it's about like harming others, right? And this idea of like I harm myself and I harm others by doing things that I wasn't made to to do, right? Like I wasn't made to envy, it's it's corroding my heart, right? Like those things. And so when I think about um wishing someone would say to me, like, not wet don't sin, because we are human and we will, but more of like when when it happens, you have a God that you can move towards boldly, you can approach the throne of grace and he can sympathize with your weakness, and he can restore you from the shame that you might be experiencing from it. And so, like that to me is a more restorative gospel than stop doing what you're doing because it's bad. Um that might be true, true, the kernel of truth. I can hear it in that, but the it misses it's moralistic and it misses the heart of God for us. Is it right? The heart of God is to flourish, it's not to just follow all the rules. Um, and so I think the the challenge in a lot of abusive systems is um we get really stuck on being good Christians. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that desire to want to please God with our lives and our choices and our bodies. I do wonder if sometimes we miss why we're doing it. And then these systems kind of create this control pattern, right? Where if you don't do it, there's consequences and not just consequences from like others, right? Where people are shaming, dismissing, and even rejecting you. But then there's this message of God is too. And um, I I don't believe that's I don't believe that's the gospel. And so the the challenge of those is that it it kind of creates this compliance with rules without really recognizing why I'm doing it, and then feeling like I have to in order to maintain connection and belonging in that system, yeah. Um, or connection and belonging for God. Uh and so that's kind of, I don't know if that makes sense on your end, but that's kind of where I've been coming from. And and and I think my heart is really tendered towards this experience because of who I sit with and the stories I've gotten to hear and really learned from my community um what their experiences have been. Because mine, mine have not been anything near what they've experienced, like the complete like um rejection from others just because of um them not following the rules of their community.

SPEAKER_02: 25:17

Yeah. Yeah. It's it's almost like we you're you're pointing to this um element of if you do good, hey, we all like you, we all want you to be around us. You know, you're part of the club, right? Part of the good kid club. And if you're not, you're kind of shunned from the group. So what you end up believing is, oh, when I do good, I'm accepted by the group, and when I do bad, I'm separated from them. And that's right. And to your point, you made a really good point about the message that we want to get across is not, you know, if you do bad, you know, you're not in a good state or in a good position with God. But rather, when you do this or when it does happen, you do have a loving, forgiving, gracious God who's willing to, He wants you to come back. And maybe that plays into that lie that Satan places, right? The idea of you are so messed up right now, you're gonna go to God right now when you just sinned against him, right? So that starts to creep in. And um, yeah, it I think that that was a really great point that we want to make sure that people understand this gracious, loving, forgiving God so that they can come back to that. That's how you sort of the relationship, right?

SPEAKER_00: 26:27

Um, yeah, it's uh it's all about rupture and repair, right? If we look at it from an attachment perspective, yeah, even but like but these systems, like religious, like abusive and controlling systems don't repair unless you're compliant, and that's problematic, right? Yeah, it's I will only I will only repair with you if you dot dot dot dot dot, right? Instead of it it moving in in like this mutual, like we are all we're all in the same playing field, we all fall short, and we all have grace, and we all recognize that like we're trying, right? We're moving towards we're moving towards the um uh the the end goal, which is to be with God. And so I I I notice this in systems a lot, and I've seen it in my own process too of of being um kind of uh excluded from things because it's I didn't comply with the the rules of of a of a person versus what God's word is saying. Those are two very different things.

SPEAKER_02: 27:31

So yes, yeah. I I had that as well, and yeah, I mean that made it worse. It's like, is this this I don't know where it says this in God's word, but you're yeah, a spiritual authority, so I guess I had to listen to you. So that caused a lot of confusion, right? Exactly. Um yeah, so so this kind of brings up this next question. Is so how can we tell the difference then between a healthy community, healthy church community that makes a mistake? Like I'm not we're we're not naive or blind to the fact that the church has issues and has had some uh a lot of concerns in this area, right? We we know that that's out there.

SPEAKER_01: 28:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:10

Um but is there a difference between churches that may be people in leadership where they make mistakes, right? They make a mistake, it happens once, it happens twice, whatever whatever the case is over a number of years. And some that are just systematically that way, like that is the pattern of how they do things. Like throughout their whole history, the message has been if you do well, you're part of the group. If you don't, we don't want you here, type of thing. What would that look like for us to say it's still a healthy church, but it really messed up here? This this was a big mistake. And others were no, that's just the pattern of how they've been doing things, you probably need to leave that church because it is so much like that. Like, where's that line?

SPEAKER_00: 28:56

I think it's a great question because it's so uh this type of abuse, like this type of abuse, spiritual abuse is so it's so subtle, so it it can be difficult to kind of determine, especially, and I don't know about you, but like I grew up in the same church for a really long time. So this is not just about like I mean, it's a it's not just about go going to a church to like sit on Sundays, it's your it ends up being your family, your community, yeah, right. So the the challenge of that is so much more complex because it's a place of belonging, it's it's very attachment-oriented. And so what I would say to that question is I get curious about how are we responding to um harm, to uh choices in leadership that maybe have negative outcomes or are just like downright not okay, right? Um what I what I'm always looking for is how are people responding to said event, whatever it is. So it comes out that someone you know has done something wrong or um whatever it is. I I don't want to use any examples, just naming, just naming, okay, an event happens where someone has been either harmed or someone has confessed something, how is the church responding to it, right? How is the leadership responding to it? That is gonna tell us a lot about whether or not that community is is open and humble enough to say we want to acknowledge this, we want to name it. You know, I think if I can use an analogy and you can tell me if we need to find a different one, but oftentimes what I see in in churches, especially around sexual abuse in churches, because that does happen at times where it's disclosed, um, and there is a kind of double downing of the church leadership to support the person who has been named as the abuser, instead of saying this is wrong, we we don't care what the the details are or all of the excuses are, but we name the wrong being done. And so that's something that I think can be really helpful and clear of when you're noticing, even in yourself, if if someone's listening saying, Well, how do I know if my church is this way? Can you go to leadership and say, hey, this is something I'm having a difficult time with that happened, or this is what I'm noticing? And how are they responding? Is it with humility and curiosity? Or are they saying, No, that's not actually what happened, right? Are they dismissing? Um, because oftentimes what you're what you're talking about in patterns, church churches that have high control centers, right? They oftentimes dismiss um and even use gaslighting and in spiritualization to um maintain the culture that they've built, right? Insulating the power and and and saying, like, that's not what really happened, like this is what happened, right? So I always get curious at the response and and noticing if if leadership can name what has happened and and maybe even apologize on behalf of um whatever the harm is. I mean, it's even more beautiful if the pastor can, right? Sure. I mean, I I've seen that happen so many times, and I really appreciate when you know pastors are just like they they're human too. And I think sometimes we can forget that. Um, but what I what I think gets tricky is is that power of that position can really lend itself to the um opportunity to abuse that power. And so, right, it it is a very um, it's a really it's a really important role that I don't think um we can hold lightly.

SPEAKER_02: 32:52

Yeah. I mean it carries with it the the idea of being a shepherd, right? Of caring for the flock, and you care for all of the people in your flock. Um you know, I like how you mentioned sometimes the power is centered on one person, that being the pastor. So I think one of the things also that you want to see is kind of like a checks and balances, so kind of like this elder-led type of approach where you have people checking in and so on. So I've seen that model work um much better than those where it's just individual and that pastor has the final say. Because yeah, who I mean, who's gonna say anything to him if he doesn't have anyone checking him? You know, so I think that's a healthy way to look at it as well. Um, you know, Carly, oftentimes when people go through this, you mentioned earlier just about maybe different types of messaging that pe that we get. And you said something like, um, uh, you know, maybe God's using this for for my good or something like that. Would that fall under the category of spiritual bypassing? Can you talk a little bit about that? I know we talked a little bit about, well, what is spiritual bypassing for those who are are listening.

SPEAKER_00: 33:59

Yeah, spiritual bypassing is a really um, I would say common. And and I again, I will say I'm guilty of it throw it out for sure. It's good, yeah, there's a good intention in it. I and I want to hold space for that. People want to say something that's gonna help, right? Um, and so when someone's struggling, when someone's having a hard time, when someone's doubting, it's really easy to want to give them something from the Bible that's going to feel make them feel better. And and so spiritual bypassing is using anything um, right, within within the religious context, but oftentimes scripture is what we we tend to use, right? And um using it to bypass pain or struggle or challenge, right? So anytime we're trying to kind of um tie something up in a bow, right? Like you said, all things all things work together for good, right? Count and all joy, right? So those are truths, and I'm not saying they're not. I'm I'm I'm I'm maybe saying, you know, when we can use them incorrectly and in the wrong timing. Um, and that's where that spirit that spiritual bypassing language comes in, where it's actually used to avoid, right? Um avoid the spiritual formation work that I think is happening in that moment rather than to move into it, right? And I think this is where um especially those that are that are in the church community, that are serving in the church community, where we have to become wounded healers ourselves. And Henry Nowen has a great book um called Wounded Healers, and he talks all about this idea of if we are not if we are not connected and able to name our own suffering and uh and allow it to lead us into our ministry with others, and we we won't be able to hold other people's pain. And so oftentimes uh when I notice spiritual bypassing language, it comes out of oftentimes a very good place to try to help, but in in a lot of ways it tells me that maybe there there's an uncomfortability with the experience of pain and and and to be able to get curious about what is it about, right? Can God meet us in that space too? That can he just weep with us? And he he he does, right? He there's so many beautiful moments in scripture where we are invited into lamentation rather than just to pull us up um into the kind of like this God is good, so we don't have to be sad. Yeah, and and that's he is good, and he's good to hold us when we are sad, right?

SPEAKER_02: 36:37

That's that's really good. Yeah. Uh you know, you mentioned uh this uncomfortability with with pain. You know, there is this this genuine heart from people who want to yeah, want to say the right thing to alleviate some of that pain. And so they don't really know what to do. It's I don't know what to do. Should I guess I'll just give them a verse or something like that. But you know, we've we've seen silence be a good way to kind of just sit with people, right? Is one way. Um, another one is kind of offering, hey, what do you need right now? How can I be here for you? And sometimes it's just just pray for me. Or it's you know, just I just want you to be here with me. Hey, my family's hungry. Would you mind getting up to me? Whatever the case is. But it's really this aspect of just being physically present, right? Demonstrating in a very physical, tangible way how you're being there as they're wrestling through the their situation, whatever that might be. Um so I really like that you that you mentioned that. Um so Carl, we've been talking just about what this is and um how it affects people, how it affects people in the church, even leadership in the church. So for those who are leaders, uh whether it be pastors or just ministry leaders, um how would we help them to avoid falling into this with their congregation, with the with the with the people from that go to church? Um what can we say that can help them um not fall into this?

SPEAKER_00: 38:08

Yeah. So I think one of the things that I've come to realize is that words are cheap. Um and so in this context, right, like for them, I'm saying for for for the church to not fall into these patterns, we can't just say, well, we're a church that doesn't stand for spiritual abuse, right? It's it's more like we have to show with our lives that we are committed, right, to this. And so something I would share with, and I've done this in in other faith communities, um, getting to teach on this for churches to be able to equip them. And one of the things that I think is really um helpful language is being able to notice what a trauma-informed approach would be, right? Because if we're thinking about this from like just a miss ministry perspective, everybody coming in the door has some type of trauma, right? So if we're just thinking in that mindset, it can be really helpful. And so, in addition to what I had said about like being a wounded healer and encouraging those in ministry positions to really do their own inner work and to be able to be acquainted with their own suffering. Um, I think another piece of this is um what we would call like contemplative awareness, and and not every church, you know, is a contemplative practice, but that's not what I necessarily mean. It's more about being um like witness-oriented rather than revolt results focused. And so oftentimes church cultures can feel really focused on like results, results of their their um congregation, results in numbers of attendance, right? Those types of things. And what that really what that can do is it can perpetuate right these cycles of of control in the sense of, well, we're trying to get this number, we're trying to get people in the door, so we're gonna. Do what right things that we want to do in order to get them in. So something I really encourage church leaders to look at is ref like reflecting on the posture of their engagement with others, um, rather than like reacting from this position of like potentially power, but also just like wanting to meet a quota or um get an outcome of some kind. That we have we can leave the outcome up to the Holy Spirit. And so what does it look like for the church as a whole, as a community, to be witness-oriented? You know, what what might that look like? Um, and I'm one of the things that um Charles Kaiser talks about in his book, Trauma-Informed Evangelism, he talks about how we can offer ourselves in hospitality. And he uses this term about flipped hospitality. And I just love this kind of concept of of taking like the position of the guest rather than the host. Church is really good at being the host. We host everything, right? It puts us in a power dynamic. And so, what does it look like to become a guest? You know, if we're individually in the church and we're saying, okay, what does it look like? Maybe it's you know going out of the church building, right? And and being the guest in someone else's home, right? Maybe it's um just holding space for the opportunity to be invited into someone else's space, into someone else's culture to into someone else's life, versus this kind of you come to us, we we give you what we think you need, right? Um, and so that's just one idea that I think is really powerful to be focused on this witness orientation rather than results and and opening ourselves up to this idea of um noticing the power differential and then um and and coming at it with like a humility. And this quote that I think he has in the book who he says, um, we are able to make oh, I think it's Henry Nowin that says this, we are we're able to make space for another because we have first made space for ourselves. And so that kind of goes back to this idea of that inner work. And the more that we're able to hold space for our own story, right? For our own suffering, I think it really does allow us to hold a more humble place um in our ministry work. So that's just one area. Um I have lots of things on my list that I could name, but I don't know if there's anything else um on there that is helpful for you to know.

SPEAKER_02: 42:26

No, that's good. I I like that. I I feel like um the closer you are to your people, the more tenderness and grace that you can have towards them, right? Because you're seeing them in their daily life, right? I I you know that's one of my struggles with these um mega church pastors, not all of them, but there's there's quite a few. They're not connected to their people, right? No, they're just not connected to people. They go up on stage, they do their thing, they leave, and they're not connected. So there's something special about these, you know, smaller churches where they know everyone by name. Like you're just culture with them, you know them at a different level. Um so so yeah, I do appreciate that that idea of of um getting to be the guest in in other people's lives. I think it's really good. Um Carl, do you have anything else that you want to share to maybe something that we missed or something that you feel is necessary? I I do want to let the audience know we're gonna leave you in a little cliffhanger because the next episode that we're gonna do is gonna be on how the Christian who was hurt by the church, how we can guide them towards healing or how to respond when this has happened in their lives. But just as you as you kind of note that, is there anything that you would like for the audience to know before we do close out?

SPEAKER_00: 43:38

Um, I think one of the things I had kind of I've been thinking about just from like a yeah, like a ministry perspective, because I've I serve in my church and and noticing and encouraging those that are like, I really want to be able to hold space for people that are wounded. Like I really want to be like I I I hear a lot of people saying that like I just want to be open to this idea and and sit with people that are wounded. And so my encouragement would be to you know, how do we do this? Well, just go and read about Jesus' ministry, like the way that he interacted with people is just beautiful. And and one of the things that I noticed so much about uh about the character and life of Christ is that he is so curious, he asks so many questions, and he engages with his audience um on such a deeper level than just you know do the right thing or follow the rules, right? Which is what we're trying to um maybe focus more on the heart behind it. And so Jesus does that in like really truly seeing people and being curious about their experience. And so attunement and curiosity before anything else is kind of my my encouragement to people, and and and we can learn that through the gospels and through um Jesus as our as our kind of forerunner. And so one of the questions that I was thinking through and and just like preparing for today is are we willing to bear witness, you know, to to other people's stories, to their pain and to their experience and create safety for them to reenvision a God of love? Because for a lot of people, and we'll talk about this in the next episode, you know, our fra when any trauma is spiritual in the sense that it it fragments our imagination for who God is. And so, you know, there is a space where people aren't gonna have the answers and where they're gonna be maybe even mad at God, and that makes a lot of sense based on their experiences. And so can are we willing and um can we increase our capacity to hold that space so that the spirit can do the work in them? That's that's the good news is that we can just hold the space and and I see it time and time again, God shows up in that space, um, in his own timing.

SPEAKER_02: 45:51

Yeah, yeah. No, that's good. That's really great, Carly. You know, uh one of the the pros and cons of doing a podcast when you touch on a topic that you're really interested in, and we could go Joe Rogan style and do like three hours or whatever the case. I know I really could.

SPEAKER_01: 46:05

I have so many more notes.

SPEAKER_02: 46:06

So I think that we are we're having to cut back. Um, but hey, you know, maybe it's opportunity for another one later down the road. So we'll do that. But um, yeah, well, thank you, Clay, for sharing. And again, just for those kids who are listening, there will be episode two released next week. And uh yeah, hopefully hopefully you can tune into that one as well as we talk about if you've been hurt by the church, what you can do to move towards healing. Hope you can join us then. Uh