Modern Churches And The Warnings Of Revelation w/ Dr. Paul Cooke

A bigger crowd doesn’t mean a brighter lampstand. We dive into the seven churches in Revelation to uncover what faithfulness looks like right now: encouragement for the steady, warnings for the compromised, and hope for those who feel lukewarm or misled. With Dr. Paul Cooke, we explore how ancient letters expose today’s soft doctrines, from antinomianism to the prosperity gospel, and why charisma without character so often seduces the modern church.

We share stories from real spiritual abuse and cult dynamics to show how small theological twists become deep wounds in people’s lives. Then we get practical. What marks a trustworthy church? Start with Scripture that centers Jesus and the substitutionary atonement, pastors who share authority rather than hoard it, and communities that practice discipleship across tables, not just from stages. Small groups, honest correction, and patient leadership form believers who can recognize flattery, resist hype, and stay grounded when trends shift.

We also talk about suffering as a surprising gift. Revelation praises churches that endure; Hebrews and 2 Corinthians remind us that affliction trains our loves and sharpens our hope. If your faith feels stale, this conversation aims to warm your heart again around the living Christ. Return to the Word daily, seek a shepherd who guards and guides, and lean into a community that tells you the truth with gentleness. If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more thoughtful conversations, and leave a review to help others find the show.

Chapters

• 0:00 Setting The Stage: Part Two
• 1:04 Charisma, Megachurches, And Soft Doctrine
• 2:13 Seven Churches: Commendations And Warnings
• 5:15 Antinomianism And Sexual Immorality
• 10:15 Twisted Scripture And Real-World Harm
• 13:40 Discipleship, Word, And Healthy Leadership
• 18:20 Choosing Churches Without The Hype
• 22:00 Perseverance, Persecution, And Lukewarm Faith
• 26:30 Pilgrims, Suffering, And Eternal Hope
• 31:00 Closing Encouragement And Blessing

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm excited that you're here. This is part two of an interview that I did with Dr. Paul Cook. And today we're talking about the modern church and the churches in Revelation and see if there's any similarities there and what we can learn from them. Last time we spoke about characteristics and warnings of a cult. Again, one of the big reasons why I started this podcast was to help Christians uh learn how they can connect with God. And the three things that I always emphasize are scripture, prayer, Christian community. And one of the things that we discovered in the last episode was how some of these things can be misused or abused and can lead Christians astray. So hopefully from that last episode, you were able to identify okay, what are some things that that I'm believing or the pastor's teaching or that the group is believing that is actually not helping me in my walk with God. And today, one of the things that I want to look at is how the modern church, in a lot of ways, it does play on this aspect of a charismatic leader, Dr. Cook. I'm sure you've seen it a lot, and it more so on these megachurches, right? These megachurches really place a lot of emphasis on the charismatic personality of the pastor, right? And the beliefs they they tiptoe around theological teachings. They'll say something that's almost true, but not fully true, right? It's just a tad of truth, but the that what they leave out is so important to the doctrine, to the doctrines of the faith. So hopefully we can touch on a couple of those things um as we do this interview. But thank you again for uh doing this episode. And uh yeah, I'm looking forward to discussing these on this topic. So obviously, we you know we hear a lot about the churches in Revelation. And uh I'm curious to hear from your perspective. What do you see from the modern church that is similar to the churches that we read about in Revelation?

SPEAKER_00: 2:13

Well, the churches are each church has its own character. It's as and notice in the in the in the book of Revelation, each has its own angel that looks out for it. That's right. Uh same to the angel of the church of Thyatire, speaking to the angel of the church of Pergamon. So each church has its own angel, and each church has its own set of people who have their own issues. Um and uh we see in reading those chapters, though uh those two chapters in Revelation of those seven churches, that there are only two of them that are uh completely commended, there's no fault found in them, Smyrna and Philadelphia. But the other five have some serious problems, some more than others. Um and in each case the Lord does try to encourage and warn, he encourages and warns. And uh I I think that uh uh human nature hasn't changed since this first century, and uh we uh can learn from the examples of those seven churches uh how the Lord deals with problems, uh how what sort of problems uh develop and um how important it is to stay close to him and close to his word. They they didn't have uh I think by the time um uh John wrote the revelation, that there already was most of the New Testament was in was had been written down. Uh that you had the epistles already, because we're around 90 AD, and you've got the gospels have already been written, contrary to what some people will tell you. I'm reading a book right now called Jesus and the eyewitnesses uh by a guy named Bachmann, I think his name is. Bachman. It's terrific. It it talks about how the gospels give every evidence of having been the work of eyewitnesses, um, and so they could not have been written much longer than the lifetime of the the twelve or the eleven. Um talks a great deal about how Peter influenced uh was uh Mark seems but in any case they had the word, but even before that, before they had the New Testament, they still had the testimony of the apostles. And that they had the New Testament. In Acts, it talks about the apostles' doctrine. When the when the first church was saved, the first in Jerusalem, there was 3,000 saved in Acts chapter 2. It says that they uh they repented and that they they gave themselves to the apostles' doctrine and to the fellowship uh and to prayer and to breaking of bread. So I think that may be communion, they be taking the Lord's Supper. So uh but the apostles' doctrine was what the what the the gospel, what they learned, what what they learned from the eleven about what it was like to follow Jesus and what Jesus was all about. And uh and so I think these seven churches are all dealing with the same thing. They they how are they are they having are they is their fellowship pure? Are there is there uh things that are coming in? Uh I I what does Paul say John say at the end of his first epistle, little children, keep yourselves from idols. That's the last verse of first John. And uh I think that's the the various idols. One thing that's very noticeable to me because the cult that I was in got str got mixed up with what I guess you could call antinomianism, which is we're uh believers, now that we have grace, are free from the law. Yeah, and therefore, sexually you can do whatever you want. That's what that was that was the heresy. Uh I mean, you see that heresy in in John Bunyan's day in a group called the Ranters, 1650, but it's was alive and well with the children of God. Not at first. At first we were extremely conservative until the leader began revealing what was really in his heart.

SPEAKER_01: 6:01

Yeah, it's almost like they wait for those things, right? They wait for a certain amount of time before they drop these bonds. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:08

He started with a few of his closest disciples, and then he wanted everybody to share his guilt. He wanted to get everybody infected, and so and he did, he succeeded. And you read that in in uh uh in both Fayatira and in Pergamon in the of the seven churches, they're having trouble with sexual immorality. And they had uh place it talks about Jezebel, it talks about the Nicola Nicolatanes who seem to believe uh in um uh pagan feasts, which also involved sexual uh uh immorality. And so we realize what an important part of our makeup is our sexual nature. God made a male and female. But if you don't have uh a star to guide by, if you don't have the truth to guide you, that strong drives that are connected to that can take human beings off in all kinds of unhealthy directions. And we see that's uh afflicting at least two of the churches. Uh and in fact, even in the church in Ephesus, they're commended for saying no to that. You say, I like you, the Lord says, You've got I've got some problems with you in Ephesus, but I one thing I will commend you for is that you say no to the doctrine of the Nicolitanes, which are uh uh uh Nicolaitans, I don't know how you pronounce it, but and what they're all about is uh antinomianism, where to say, but now that we have God experienced God's grace and uh we we're free from the law, no, we're freed finally to follow the law without condemnation. The law is still there for uh the Bible's not full of of guidance about sexual behavior so that we don't have to ignore it, so that we are allowed to ignore it. But in the children of God, you know, we did ignore it. We we believed our leader has missed his twisting of the scriptures. Yeah, and and and that's obviously what's happened in some of these churches is that somebody's twisting the scriptures and leading people astray.

SPEAKER_01: 8:05

Yeah, and that's and that's very very similar to what's happening in today's churches. I mean, Dr. Cook, I literally just saw, I think it was maybe last week or two weeks ago, um, a pastor on social media was making the rounds, you know, it started to get a lot of um a lot of traction and on social media because he from the pulpit uh started to preach that sex before marriage was actually acceptable. That the Bible, when it was talking about it at, you know, to the specific people, he said that was specific for them because they were being a certain type of immoral. His main argument was if you're committed to this person, then it's okay for you to have sex with them, right? So he was preaching this from the pulpit. So it goes back to kind of what you're saying is that they're they're using the they're using the Bible to proclaim what they want and what maybe eliminates some of the guilt that they experience or experiencing, and they're passing it to people who are coming to them to learn more about God's word.

SPEAKER_00: 9:06

So I mean it's a huge problem, huge, and I knew people in the group who I really cared for, who were so um upended by these doctrines and by the effects of them, yeah, that they took their own lives. And this happened to several people that I knew, and and then uh the children of people who were in the group, you know, people that I joined, that those children were abused and were were raised into this sort of thing. And so I actually actually it it was the destruction of the group. Uh, and I think that of among the thousands or so who left in 1979, like I did, though we didn't know each other, no one told anybody anything, because if you were doubting that you you you couldn't tell anybody, and so but it I learned later, through different things I've read, that a lot of people left at that time. And I think it was because though they didn't understand why, their lives were completely confused by the sexual revolution within the group. Uh husbands were sharing wives, wives were sharing husbands, the group was using as happening within the church? Within the group, within the children of God. Oh, the cult that I was in. And this was known among the group? Oh, yes. It was a doctrine. It was a whole it was it I guess by the time by 1976, my uh seventh year in the group, it was the latent doctrine. It was the in fact it was the principal means of quote unquote evangelism. Before that, we were selling the to raise money. But in some countries you couldn't get away with that because it was, you know, they didn't want people handing out propaganda, whatever it was. So the leader said, Well, this is how we we can uh the girls could get all of it. It was on the cover actually in Time magazine, there was a big piece about it. And yes, the the group it was called Flirty Fishing. The group taught the girls to use sex to attract men so that they would come to Christ and they would also fund the group. Essentially, they were being hookers for the Lord. And then he even wrote, he even quote from the Lord, he even wrote Mo letters about it. Some of his letters were titled that. Wow. And so uh, but it's funny because in the first years of the group, there was absolutely none of that, and yet uh at the very beginning, I've since said, you know, I've had a lot of time to do a lot of research. The leader had a whole history of miracle infidelity from even before the group started. And it was under wraps, but it came out. Also, at the same time, he had a fascination with the occult. And it in towards uh the I guess by 1971 or 72, my third year I think I was in the group, he thought he was having uh communications with a dead gypsy king who was guiding him. And he told uh in he had dreams, he'd say, uh Martin Luther, Martin Luther's advising me, my mother, my dead mother is advising me. Uh uh Eric the Red is advising me. He had all these spiritual counselors who were dead, they were spiritually alive, and and and we didn't know any better. We thought, oh, wow, interesting. He must be close to God if he's yeah, yeah. And so uh so his fascination with the occult and his um uh uh obsession with sex really uh began to become the main by the time I left, half of his letters to the group were about that. And anything to do with uh spiritual walk, relations with Christ, um concern for the scriptures. He was concerned about Jesus coming back. In fact, he did the most foolish thing, he predicted when Jesus would come back, which is the do the doom of any any false teacher, right? Right.

SPEAKER_01: 12:58

Everyone's making those predictions, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:59

Yes. I mean, so foolish. And yet it was oh, oh, this is like 1972. He said, in 1993, Jesus is gonna come back. And um, he died a year later, 1994. Moses David Berg died, and his mistress took over as the leader. By then the group had been reduced to about 1,500 people, and it still exists as something called uh the Family International. It looks like a bunch of nice Christian boys and girls, but underneath is all this disease still there. And um that you certainly were not gonna learn Christ by joining them.

SPEAKER_01: 13:37

Yeah. I know you kind of alluded to it, Dr. Cook, but it sounds like a lot of these things that slip out, like these teachings that are contradictory to scripture, um, these are things that they're they've been holding on for a long time, and it seems like they're just waiting for the right time to say something, or even in the middle of their teaching, things slip out. You know, there was one guy, um, pastor in another megachurch, and he was doing like some sort of little song chant. I guess he was trying to get the crowd riled up, the congregation. And in the middle of it, or as he's continues to do that little song, he says, I feel like, I feel like I can snorted cocaine, but actually I've never done that, so I don't know. So they say these things. I'm like, why would you use that as an example in the middle of the church as you're singing these songs? And he's done that with sexual things too. So, I mean, this is again a big problem. So, for those who are listening, when you hear these things, don't just discard it and say, oh no, it's not that big of a deal, or you just look at the size of the ministry. This is another thing which um kind of left an impression on me when you talked about your church uh that it had nine thousand, eight thousand people or nine thousand. Um, these churches are huge and they're satellite churches, so they have all this congregation and the understanding from those who are coming to the church feel that God is blessing them because they're so big. So, how do you how do you advise against that? Because I I think that is a lot of people who are either new Christians or who don't know much about the church, they think that the size of the church means God is blessing the church, so it must be good.

SPEAKER_00: 15:18

Oh, yeah, it's a terrible problem. Uh, and also the uh uh uh so what's the cure? I thought I guess you begin. Uh maybe you say it's a pastoral issue that pastors need to warn their flocks, pastors that are true pastors, you know, not false shepherds, like these guys, to warn their flocks that there are such people. I mean, Paul in Acts 20, he's warning the Ephesians. He's saying, After my departure, grievous wolves will enter in among you. Even though Paul had invested years, several years in in raising up leaders in Ephesus, and uh, of course, that's decades before uh uh uh the uh Apostle John in in um the book of Revelation writes to Ephesus. Yeah, but uh you you you you want to forearm people. Jesus warned his disciples of that these things, uh and you see it in the epistles, these warnings all the time. So uh and and when you read uh biographies of of real Christian leaders, um I've been reading the uh sermons of John Calvin, or uh uh I've been reading a biography of uh Jonathan Edwards, or I read a biography not too long ago of uh of Whitfield, reading about or or Elizabeth Elliott uh or or Corey Tenbu, reading the biographies of respected, the consensus or the Christian consensus is that these are respected men and women of God.

SPEAKER_02: 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 16:50

Reading about their lives and the things that they encountered that were uh good and that were bad, and that so that you get some sense that there's a a history of being a Christian, there's a history of challenges, that it's a spiritual warfare, and that there are all kinds of forces out there that would like to waylay you. Uh I think the first thing you begin with is reading God's word regularly every day, even if it's just for a few minutes. Make it, I mean, you can't always do it. You don't want to make it into a kind of works trip, but uh I mean, I I uh I I try to read God's word. I have, you know, there are many systems how you can read to the Bible in a year or two, and I do that. And uh just reading it, uh uh familiarizing yourself with the things that God's people have gone through. Uh the Bible pulls no punches, it shows people at their worst and how God deals with them. And uh you read the epistles, you read the things that go wrong, even reading the these two chapters in Revelation, which I read just yesterday just today yesterday, because I knew I was gonna be talking to you. I remind them, and I just finished reading Revelation. I just finished today, actually, uh Revelation 22, and I didn't uh I didn't even stop. I said, I'm gonna read Matthew 1. I'm starting so I read the first chapter of Matthew 1 when after reading the last chapter. So I'm I'm starting the New Testament again, and I go to the same with the Old Testament. Of course, it takes longer, the Old Testament's longer. But uh and I'm teaching Genesis in my Sunday school class. But so but being in the Word is the first thing, and then being hearing the Word preached with a loving, good pastor. Now, if you're if you're unchurched and you're looking for the for the truth, it's easier to get sucked in. How do you what do you say to people like that? That's a good question. Um I mean, I I you you just uh look for um you say, well, if God is um gentle and good and kind, uh and and uh be careful if you're someone who's who's telling you that they represent God who who isn't that way, you know. God so loved the world that he gave us it it's not to say that sometimes a pastor can't doesn't have to um uh you know thy rod and thy staff they comfort me. Sometimes pastor does church things, there's such a thing as church discipline, and and but in general, uh so that's one thing. And then another is uh a leader that is too much by himself. I think this guy who runs uh I I I just lived in Houston for four years, very close to a place called the the Oasis of Love. It used to be the Houston Rockets basketball uh uh stadium. It holds 20 or 30,000 people. The Rockets moved to a new uh a new venue, and this church bought it was called Lakewood Church. They bought the uh the Rockets arena. This guy, Joel Austin, now runs it. He packs that place out, and he is a purveyor of the prosperity gospel. Yeah. And those people fill that place up. Um, and if you listen very long to the guy, you see he Does not preach the substitutional atonement, substitutionary atonement of Christ. It's the prosperity gospel. It's a false dot teaching that God came so that you can have your best life now. Well, that's not that's not true. I mean spiritually, yes, but not materially.

SPEAKER_01: 20:21

I mean, he's gone on on air, and he's specifically stated, I just want to give people a positive message. So it's not even I want to put scripture first, I want to put Jesus first. It's I want to make people feel good after they leave church. Or yeah, once they come to church and leave church. So yeah, I mean, I'm with you on that. I mean, that but that's one of the examples where people, I mean, he's a likable guy, he's nice, whatever. But those are things that people want to see. They want to feel good, they want church to feel good. So, you know, that it's interesting too, Dr. Cook, because we have two extremes, right? We have one extreme, which is where O scene's at. Everything feels good, everything's nice. I'm gonna talk about the beautiful stories here in scripture, and then you have the other side where they can talk about scripture, but they do it with such a such a harshness and such a um authoritarian approach, right? So it's it's kind of steering away from both of those ends. And and is there like a middle ground? Like, I mean, I love what you said earlier. You said you want a pastor who is a shepherd, who cares about the flock, who is kind and gentle, but is also committed to preaching the truth, right? And I think people want one or the other, it seems at least.

SPEAKER_00: 21:41

Yeah, yeah. Human beings are very susceptible to being misled. We are like sheep. It's not for nothing that we're compared to sheep. At least God's people are. Of course, and there are also goats. There's sheep and goats. Goats are not the same as sheep. Um you know, it is uh it is a sad thing that there is all these and we we were warned. I mean, Jesus said there are many, many will come in my name saying I am Christ, but they're not. And and so I guess we we um are called to be um shepherds or under shepherds or soldiers, and to help uh I mean w one of the things that my for example, my pastor, when I first got to know him, um it's a small church, 150 people. Um uh we met a couple of times for breakfast, and he said, Let's keep doing this. And and he he had a uh a Bible study called um Um Discipleship 101, in which he went through the 12 things in scripture that Christians did daily. They prayed daily, they read the word daily, they had daily fellowship, and we talked about each one of those. And we went through that, and then we talked about other things. And I had breakfast with this man every Friday for four years. And then after a while, uh, when he was out of town, he said, I want you to preach for me. I said, Uh uh me? He said, Yeah. He said, You now know enough. You pick a passage, you can preach. So I did, and he he's been doing that with other people in the church, people that he a disciple spends enough time with, he says, he wants to bring them along, he's willing to share his pulpit with people that he believes are uh you know mature older brothers in Christ. And uh he doesn't go fishing for pulpit supply far away. He and there are young men, uh, some not so young in the church who uh when he's away, uh which is maybe a dozen Sundays a year, um he asked them to preach. And of course the elders are there if they should go astray, there's a way, but they that usually by the time he's asked you to preach, he knows you're gonna preach the gospel. And so uh that's a sign of uh wanting to bring people along to make them stronger, so that then they can play a role in the church as bellwethers, as the sheep that sort of lead other sheep. Um it's not to make the church uh a cult, a club, a special clothes place, but to make everyone so that if you go somewhere else, you're going to also take care of God's sheep. You're gonna be you're gonna have a shepherd's heart. But so the whole idea of decide and and there are a few people in the church that I uh have breakfast with on occasion, not regularly, but more than once. And we do something similar. In other words, uh Paul says, teach others to teach others, you know, the things that you have heard of me, teach to others. That's what Paul says in 2 Timothy, I think. So the idea is that you learn the gospel, you learn the things about the resurrection, about uh Christ's coming, about um the divinity of Christ, about the uh grace of God, and you you share these with other people one-on-one and in small groups. I think in some way, the most of the important group growth in a church happens in small groups led by solid brothers.

SPEAKER_02: 25:14

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00: 25:15

Sunday, Sunday preaching is vital, but and Sunday school is important too. But that personal close because you just don't have time on Sunday morning to be that close to people, yeah. Or even on Wednesday evening, or but that thing, uh, you know, uh a group meeting in your home once every two weeks for two hours, you get to know people after a year or two, and you can encourage each other in in your walk.

SPEAKER_01: 25:41

I'm a big fan of that. Because that's I mean, that's really where you know you have to be able to get to a point of being close enough where you bother each other, right? Just a little bit, right? Whereas just enough where you get a little hint of the you know, the not so Christian part that can may come up sometimes, because then you could, you know, you forgive and repent, you keep moving forward, right? Um, no, so I I'm a big fan of that. Um, Dr. Good, are there other what are some of the other issues that were going on in these churches? Ones that we haven't touched on. Uh I'm trying to see because I know at least here in Lynchburg, one of the struggles that a lot of people have is choosing a church because there's so many churches, yeah, and there's a lot of good churches. Yeah. So for those who are listening, I think, you know, if so they can be aware of hey, here's some of the things that were happening with the churches in Revelation. So if you see these things, you know, move away. And here's some good things that they were doing and move towards that.

SPEAKER_00: 26:38

Yeah. Yeah. I I think that the Lord has promises for every one of these churches, you know. He says, Him that overcomes, I will give, you know, he says various things to every one of them. Um his promises are precious. It says in uh Second Peter 1, whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises, that by these we might be partakers of the divine nature. Each one says, Him that overcomes, I will uh make a pillar in the house of my God. I mean, I think I can open it up like yeah, there's so many things that it's interesting how there's a sort of um rhythm to each of uh each one. He he commends, he criticizes, he he encourages, he warns. Uh one of the the there's the good church, the best, I mean there's the two of the two, there's Smyrna, right? Sometimes you see churches, the Houston church first Smyrna Church or something. It's a name that people use for their church because Smyrna was a good church. And notice that to each one of them, uh the um uh the Lord tells um John, to the angel of this church, right? Uh because angel is messenger, angel means, but uh I don't know why uh the scripture says to the angel right. But in any case, they each begin that way. And and then it it for it says these are the to Ephesus, these are the words of him who holds the seven stars. That's to the church of Ephesus, to the Church of Smyrna. These are the words of him who was the first and the last. These are all different characteristics of Jesus. He holds the seven stars, uh uh the candlesticks of each church. Each church has a candlestick uh that represents the light. Uh be careful that I don't take it away. It's possible for a church to fail, and the light is taken away completely. Um there's different issues. Like he said, I know your afflictions, he says to the peach and where they're suffering persecution. Um that I can say not too many American churches know what that's all about.

SPEAKER_01: 28:52

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 28:53

In China or in Nigeria, uh, or in other places like uh in North Korea, forget about a church. If you even found with the Bible, they'll kill you. Um but but uh in China they say you can't really be trusted as a pastor until you've been arrested at least once. Right. The Chinese house church movement, you know, they're persecuted all the time. But they do have a uh the three-self movement, which is the officially recognized church, right? The Chinese Communist Party governs what goes on there. And so uh if you go there, you're not gonna get the whole council of God, right? Yeah, that's what the Nazis tried to do in Germany. Uh, there was a confessing church, which was really the true church, and then there was the uh the Nazi Party appropriated or it's uh um sort of took over another part of the Lutheran church in in Germany, then it became, you know, they started to try to marry Nazism to Lutheranism. But people like Bunhoffer, who uh died resisting Hitler, uh Dietrich Bunhoefer, do you know of him? Um or uh even Pastor Niemuler, who had been a Navy's captain, a submarine captain, I think, in the First World War. Well, these are devout Christians who became resisted Hitler. So I think you want a church that is uh devoted to the Lord, that has seeking the Lord, and and and saying no to all kinds of temptations, political, ideological, spiritual, and um the how do you make yourself um proof against uh infection? And it it's being close to Jesus, he's the one who's speaking to all these churches. If you're listening to him, uh you're being you're safer than if you're not. And he's saying some of these people are listening to other voices. I mean, think of we go back to the Garden of Eden. The very first trouble was that Adam and Eve stopped listening to the Lord. They listened to another voice. Said, Oh, don't believe God when he says you're gonna die if you eat of this tree. You go ahead. It's he's just holding back from it. He doesn't want you to know. But you go ahead and eat of that tree. It's casting a little doubt. Yeah, and saying, Yeah, he's trying to limit you. You're supposed to be unlimited. Why should there be any limits? You know, and so uh the there are all kinds of things that tempt, and these are uh the the the the I guess what you could say is that the Lord is saying that in each of these churches there are things that might tempt you to to feel that God is not on your side, that he's limiting you, that you're not free. Well, actually, he is the only way to be free. And the two churches that are not getting sidetracked are interesting to look at, uh, Philadelphia and Spirit. I mean, he says that um, you know, I uh I know your afflictions and your poverty, yet you're rich. He commends them, he praises them. I tell you the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, some of you will be killed. Uh he says, he that has an ear to hear, listen. Like, oh, so many times people talk to me and I don't listen. I hear them, but I don't listen. Then that that's my wife tells me sometimes my problem is I don't listen. I I hear her, but I it's yeah, if you have ears to hear, let him hear. Uh so the Lord is speaking to us, but sometimes through his word, but sometimes we don't listen. We we we take it, we're too familiar with it. And then, of course, there's the scary church at the end, the the church in in Laodicea, that it's just they just go into the motions. They're there's no they're dead. They're the lukewarm church, yeah. They're the lukewarm church. They're they're they're they're they they seem to be doing everything that they're supposed to do, but they don't they're not doing it with their heart. They're just what does he say? Um, I know your deeds, that they are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other. Um but they're not. And he says, I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire so you can become rich. Uh uh gold refined, and uh, I I suppose you would say that that is you need some testing. You need something to test to see if there is any gold in you. Whatever it is, burn away the chaff so that the burn away the draw so that the gold emerges. Sometimes, for example, I've been having some health issues, and I realize that it's a blessing because as it says in scripture, before I was an afflict, before I was afflicted, I went astray. Now I kept thy word. Uh it's good for me that I've been afflicted, that I might learn thy statutes. It's like um the fire that burns up the draws that makes you serious. Okay, Lord, I've been taking it for granted. I just go through the motions. I read my Bible every morning, say my prayers, but am I just going through the motions or am I really loving you, appreciating you? Because you're you love me. How come, you know, and it's sort of it's like a marriage. Sometimes you take each other for granted, you know, and we're married with the Lord's bride, but but uh you know, you don't want to be taking him for granted. And so sometimes he has to help you along by letting trouble come into your life so that you realize, because it's ultimately we're just this world is to prepare us for something much bigger, better. You know, this world is not the end of the road. And um, and he it's just yeah, I mean, I haven't you you're you're you're kind of making me encouraging me to sort of think twice about these uh epistles, but it's curious that that that in in this this is the only book that we get a special blessing of for he says, uh if you read it, if you hear it, it you get a special blessing. I mean, there's no other book that has that funny thing at the beginning. He says, What does he say? He says, um, blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, blessed are those who hear it, and take it to heart what is written in it, because the time is near. No book in the Bible starts with such a you get a special an explicit blessing for reading it because the time is near. And it's interesting, it begins with these examples of groups of believers who um are having trials. But what church isn't? Even the Smyrna church, they're they're being a persecuted, they they don't have any problems. That is, they're not don't have any problems in terms of loving the Lord, but they're having other kinds of problems, they're being persecuted for loving the Lord.

SPEAKER_01: 35:23

Right, right. I appreciate you sharing that that um that last part there about the need for suffering because it draws something out of us, right? You know, we it is easy for us to take the Lord for granted. And I felt I I went through a stage of that. And I think a lot of people, especially those of us who grew up in the church, I think we feel because we feel that we've been exposed to it for such a long time. It's oh yeah, I know that story, I know this biblical principle, and so on. So we get so used to it. And I think what I've seen across my life in the lives of many people is that suffering pushes you towards your dependence, towards who you depend. So, whether that be a vice, whether that be a person, whether it be God, it's gonna show you who you go to during times of trouble. And I think for the Christian, it kind of has like that Peter moment, right? We talk about the Peter moment where um when Jesus was doing all the miracles and leading the disciples going through doing all these great things, and they leave him, and he turns to his disciples and says, Are you gonna leave me too? And I love Peter's response, right? Like, Lord, where are we gonna go? There's nowhere else for us to go. That's right, you have the words of eternal life. That's right. And I I really love that passage a lot because I think that is what happens when we don't see that we're getting what we want or what we prayed for, or we're seeing that we're going through a struggle or a tribulation, whatever the case is. Yeah, and we realize, well, I mean, the Lord's the only one who can deliver me from this. Lord, what do you want for me? What do you want for me to do here? How do how can I trust you during this time? So I I appreciate you sharing that because I know that, especially even with health issues, it's one of those things that just reminds you like we're we're here for a moment, right?

SPEAKER_00: 37:06

We're pilgrims and strangers, right? Yeah, I love that passage in in uh in Hebrews where um it's one of my favorite passages, actually. Um it it talks about um being um it's in Hebrews 11. He says um By faith Abraham went uh when called to go to a place he would later receive as an inheritance, obeyed and he went, even though he didn't know where he was going. By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country. He lived in tents as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to a city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. He has he had his vision on the heavenly city that we see uh in Revelation 21 and 22. And you know, and in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, the whole story is he's leaving the city of destruction and he's on his way to the celestial city, and it's all the trials he goes through to get there. But the whole idea is that that this this world is not really our home. It's a beautiful world, and God is going is not going to He's going to make it make it and He's going to renew it, but it it's it it's groaning right now, waiting to be delivered from the the penalty of sin. And so yeah, we're we're not we're our bodies are not made to these bodies are not made to live forever, but we are uh the body is so important. God's gonna make our bodies eternal. God doesn't want us to be disembodied. Like Jesus, Jesus has a body, he's gonna be his resurrection body. Uh so the body is an important thing so that we can communicate with each other, we can reach out to each other, and um, but not in this particular body. No, this body is gonna change, it says in the old in the King James who shall change this vile body. Liken it to his glorious body. Yeah, I like the king, you know, the uh 17 17th century English call bodies vile. That's a strong term, but there's something to that.

SPEAKER_01: 39:13

Absolutely, yeah. And you'll appreciate too this too, Dr. Cook. Uh, I had a uh professor, mentor, good friend of mine now, um, and he shared this with us in one of our classes. He and I think he referred to, I want to say 18 Corinthians, um, but it's where it talks about the body being like a tent. And he kind of went off on on this aspect of, you know, a tent, what does a tent do? A tent provides temporary housing for a place where you're not gonna be there forever, but it's also very fragile, right? The wind can easily blow it, can break it apart, and you can move around and all these different things. And he says, you know, that's that's the body. It's it's fragile, it's only a temporary dwelling place. You're not gonna be there forever. But one day we will have that. We will have this eternal um time with the Lord. And uh yeah, so we look forward to that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 40:01

And it and it time will be no more, it says in all it eye has not seen nor ear heard what the the Lord has prepared for those who love.

SPEAKER_01: 40:09

It's it's um uh we can't no more tears, no more suffering, no more pain.

SPEAKER_00: 40:13

I mean, it's unimaginable. Uh how can we we we know it's there, we believe it, but it's it's it's like can you imagine uh the disciples? Uh one of my favorite passages is Luke 24. These two disciples uh run into this stranger on the road to Emmaus, they don't know it's Jesus, and he gives them this terrific Bible study. Uh he explains all the verses uh in the Old Testament, that's the only Bible they had, about him. And he said, Oh, slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have written. And that they said that later they say our hearts were warmed by what he said. And when when when they're finally uh together, they stop in uh inn and he suddenly he takes over, breaks bread, and then he reveals to them who he is, and then he disappears. And can you imagine I have a painting of Rembrandt's painting of uh he painted that scene twice where the first time one of them is like and the other is falling at his feet to worship, you know. Yeah, but then the second thing they're they're both silently looking at him like you know, it's like that he's alive. He's alive. That Jesus. I I I I used like to give out tracts to people. I have the tracks. I was in a store, it was a whole food store in Houston, and there was a black lady uh taking, you know, she was the the clerk check checking people out. And I gave her my tract and she looked at me and she said, You know, he's alive. I said, Sister, you're ministering to me.

SPEAKER_02: 41:42

God bless you.

SPEAKER_00: 41:44

You know, he's alive. He's alive. It it's it's it's a mind blower. I mean, Thomas didn't believe it at first. He said, unless he puts his finger, and so I can put his my finger, it was nobody ever heard of such a thing. And yet our whole lives are based on the hope that it's true, that that Jesus is alive, he's gonna come back and he's gonna change us into to to be like him. And uh it's a wonderful, it's a it's a God's grace that we believe it.

SPEAKER_01: 42:11

Absolutely, yeah. Oh that's so good. That's so good. I I want to close with this with this verse. I know you'll appreciate this one as well. It's uh 2 Corinthians 4, 16 to 18. So we do not lose heart, though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self is being renewed day by day. That's super encouraging, right? Yeah, my body's falling apart, but the spirit's doing well because the Lord lives there, right? Yes. For this light, momentary affliction is repairing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen, but to the things that are unseen. For things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal. Amen. Um that's a real go-to verse for me when I think about being sick or struggles or tribulations in life. That I know it's momentary. It doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt, but it's momentary. And the Lord gives us his grace and his um and his presence. And I think that's been a good learning, uh, a good learning, um, a good lesson is what I'm trying to say in the last couple of years. So yeah, we're just thankful for that. I know we'll get there, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 43:20

We will, by God's grace. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:22

Well, as always, Dr. Cook, this this has been, I'm blessed by this conversation. This conversation um has been, gosh, it just ministered to me. Just hearing your heart, sir, as well. I I know we can be more it's it's real Christian fellowship. It's what's it, it is so um I appreciate you. Thank you for coming on the show again. I appreciate your wisdom, and uh yeah, we'll keep in touch, sir.

SPEAKER_00: 43:45

Okay, Sam. God bless you. Thank you. Have a good one. Okay, you too.