Trauma, Attachment, And Hope

Trauma can overwhelm the body and bend the story you tell about your life—but the way you name it and narrate it can open the door to real healing. We dig into what counts as Big T trauma under the DSM and what small t trauma looks like when chronic stress, relational wounds, and identity hits slowly rewire your nervous system. From hypervigilance and sleepless nights to emotional numbness and CPTSD, we unpack how pain shows up in your body, shapes your attachment style, and impacts the way you connect with others.

I share why language matters: when everything becomes “trauma,” the word loses precision and you risk building your identity around wounds instead of growth. Therapy provides a model of safety and attunement, but it’s not a script your friends must follow. Instead, use counseling to learn what healthy feels like, then seek relationships that reflect those patterns. We also talk about the body’s memory, co‑regulation, and the slow, consistent practices that help rewire your system—routines, boundaries, and steady support that teaches your brain you are safe.

As a person of faith, I explore how early attachment shapes your view of God and how betrayal by authority can distort your God concept and God image. We walk through practical spiritual rhythms—prayer, the Psalms, and grounded Christian community—that bear burdens and restore trust. The heart of this conversation is a challenge: retell your story around what you learned, how you healed, and the hope you’re building. When you emphasize growth and redemption, you change what your mind rehearses and what your body expects.

If this resonates, follow the show, share it with someone who needs language for their healing, and leave a review with one takeaway you’re putting into practice this week. Your story can move from wounds to wisdom—let’s walk that path together.

Chapters

• 0:00 Nearing Episode 100 And Vision
• 3:40 Setting Up The Trauma Series
• 4:22 Big T Vs Small T Defined
• 9:35 How Trauma Shows Up In Life
• 14:05 Attachment, Hypervigilance, And Relationships
• 19:06 The Body Remembers And Co‑Regulation
• 24:05 Stop Narrating Life As “Trauma”
• 31:40 Therapy’s Role Vs Friends And Social Media
• 36:20 Faith, God Image, And Healing Practices

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:05

Alright everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. Sam Landley here, uh getting close to episode 100. I have a couple of interviews lined up, ready to talk about actually something I'm gonna start today, which is a series on trauma. It's a short series, uh, mostly just gonna be these two episodes. So today I'm gonna do an introduction to um what trauma is, what it isn't, and even discuss a little bit about how culture has shaped the language around it, and of course, always including this element of attachment and how that plays a role in our view of trauma. So I'm really looking forward to sharing this with you guys. It's been um it's been a long time coming. I mean, uh, I can't even uh tell you guys how excited I am to be so close to episode 100. I know I've probably been mentioning this for the last couple of episodes. I've had uh a couple of breaks in between these uh episodes, and a lot of that just has to do with me finishing up my school, my dissertation, and thankfully I'm at the uh tail end of that. So I'm excited also to be done with that. Hopefully, what I'm planning to do is make that announcement for episode 100. So I have something really special um planned for episode 100. I'm gonna go back, I'm going to look at all of the clips, all of my favorite clips from some of the episodes of the past, because this was like six years ago, five years ago. And um, yeah, so I'm just gonna say what that meant to me, uh, share a little bit about a little bit more about what I've learned since that time about those particular topics. Uh, so it's gonna be a good one. Uh I'm excited to share that with you. So look out for episode 100. Hopefully, I make two big announcements. One of them is hopefully by then I'll be Dr. Sam Landa, which will be exciting. And then the second thing will be just where I plan to take the podcast. I mean, after episode 100, really, when I first started, that was that was my goal to just hit 100 episodes and know that I did it. But now I'm starting to think about this more in a more business type way. Um, I know it's you know, it's an interesting thing because it started off as something that I enjoyed doing. I wanted to become very proficient and knowledgeable about attachment. So doing these episodes, learning from all of these experts in their fields, um, it's really obviously informed my view of attachment and my view of all these mental health issues. So I think obviously the podcast for me has been a huge blessing and a huge way for me to learn about all these different topics. And I hope that it's done the same for you. And um that you have learned a lot from it. And my hope is that I'm able to provide a service from this. So as you guys have been learning and kind of as you see the new direction of the episodes of the podcast, um, that it really informs you so that it can start really maybe shaping a lot of the way that you do life and your own understanding of attachment and your standing of trauma, shame. You know, those are really the three topics that I'm going to be focusing on moving forward. And um, I mean, it's really been the main point of this podcast as well. But, you know, when there's when there's different people that you're interviewing, you try to orient a conversation around their expertise as well. So again, I'm learning from my guests as much as uh you guys are. And um yeah, it's it's gonna be exciting. So uh be on the lookout for that. Just a couple more episodes. I think it's like three. This is should be episode 97, I think. Either way, it doesn't matter. We're getting close, and I'm excited for that. So let's go ahead and jump into today's topic on trauma, trauma, faith, and recovery. So this is part one. Next week I have a guest on who is an expert in uh working with trauma, and she has her own practice, and I'll I'll introduce her uh next week. But uh this is this will be part one, that will be part two, and I think you will enjoy both both conversations. So uh yeah, let's go ahead and jump into this. So the word trauma is really thrown around a lot, um, and I say that because I think there is this narrative around trauma that maybe has created some levels of unhealth, maybe more unhealthiness in some people. In some ways, I understand because the the culture um has fed into that. And we also have a lot of exposure to different forms of trauma. Okay, so before jumping into that, I will get into that in a little bit. When we hear the word trauma, typically we think about these catastrophic events, you know, major issues, major concerns, wars, accidents, accidents, abuse, all of these different things, right? And it's important for us to really have a clear understanding, though, of what trauma is. So one of the things that I'm going to distinguish here is big T trauma, which is the definition I'm going to give in a little bit, and then small T trauma, which has to do more so with identity and meaning and messaging and all of these different things. So uh the DSM defines trauma as exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury or sexual violation. Okay, again, so it defines trauma, the DSM 5 defines trauma as exposure to actual or threatened death, serious injury, or sexual violation, right? So if you haven't experienced those things, then it could fall into the place of small T trauma. Again, and I'll get into that in a little bit. But when we talk about trauma, most people, here's what they what they think about these catastrophic events, right, that involve death, injury, or sexual violation. But you know, sometimes here's where we really get confused that all obviously these situations that I just mentioned cause significant levels of stress, uh, significant levels of pain and injury and even emotional disturbance. Now, these are the serious types or forms of trauma. But today, it sounds even though we sometimes say flippantly, and I say we meaning the culture says it kind of flippantly and likes to use the word trauma, we often use that for stressful experiences in our lives that do not meet the standards that I just mentioned here with death injury, sexual violation. Right. So that's what I mean by people kind of overusing the word and maybe even using it so flippantly that it doesn't really carry the same meaning that it did uh before, right? Now it doesn't mean that you haven't experienced trauma um if you didn't have uh an actual or threatened death or a serious injury or sexual violation, but it does help us kind of set the stage for what that can actually look like. For example, if you go through a breakup, if you lose a job, if you face academic disappointment, right? Anything that feels really heavy, but it doesn't really meet the clinical definition and threshold of trauma, right? So, in other words, a way to kind of look at this is that trauma really isn't just about the pain itself, but it's really of how much it overwhelms the nervous system, right? Because that is essentially what gets changed throughout these different experiences, right? The nervous system gets flooded with the shock of the situation. Again, so not just the clinical term for trauma, but now we move into small tea trauma, where when in your life has there been a time where you've experienced overwhelm? And that could be through a breakup, it could be through a loss of job, it could be through failing out of school, it could be through um loss of identity, right? So all of these things can be considered small tea trauma if it overwhelms the nervous system. For example, when people go through a breakup, it's really interesting where they start to lose sleep, right? So, in order to be able to cope with the breakup, they start overthinking and they start questioning, you know, what could I have done differently? What could I have done better? They may start looking at themselves like, Am I really who I I think I am? Do I need to change the way that I've been for the longest time? So they go through this whole identity crisis, right? So they start losing sleep, they start not paying attention to their friendships and relationships, they start isolating themselves. So all of these small behaviors, right, that seem small, really start to take a toll on the nerve on the nervous system, on the body. And then when that becomes repetitive and it becomes consistent, and it happens over a long period of time, then you can start to say that now they're experiencing these small tea trauma, right? Where identity, meaning, who they are as a person starts to shift in a significant way. So it's pain persisting throughout that time. So that is what we would refer to as small tea trauma. Okay, so we have our definition of what big T trauma is and what small T trauma is, right? So when we look at these things, some of the ways in which this can manifest itself regarding mental health conditions, right? We know most people, again, when we talk about trauma, know PTSD. Uh, we also have complex PTSD. So complex PTSD, also known as CPTSD, usually stems from long-term relational trauma. So this can include physical, verbal, emotional abuse, and sexual abuse, right? It's long-term. It really starts to take a toll on the person's life and it shapes their identity. We also have what known what are known as dissociative disorders, right? Where someone detaches themselves from their own thoughts, memories, or identity. And then we also have anxiety and depression. These often co-occur with traumatic experiences. Um, and remember, all of these things, not only do they affect the nervous system, but they reshape the brain. I mean, there's a lot of research on how these significant events, traumatic events, reshape the brain. They create new pathways, new systems because the shock is so strong that it needs to find a way to survive. Again, if we look at the big T trauma, usually that shock happens in the moment. It's instant and it's felt right away, right? You have flashbacks, you have nightmares, you have physical sensations, sweating, um, nervousness, all of that because of the shock of that big T trauma. With small T trauma, it takes a lot of time where slowly the understanding of how it's actually affecting you starts to take a toll. So you start losing sleep, you start questioning your identity, who you are, and even your way, the way in which you attach and connect with other people starts to change. So research shows that frequently uh trauma frequently underlies mood and anxiety disorders. So now that we know what kind of disorders stem from trauma, let's look at some of the ways in which this shows up in the lives of people. So, usually what you'll see trauma do is that it does affect the body and it does affect the mind, and both of those affect how we behave in relationships. So, one of the characteristics or one of the ways in which this shows up in the lives of people is that someone may be constantly on edge, right? Uh, trauma really does have this impact where it makes you extremely cautious, hyper-vigilant of the world around you, right? Everything that you do is about scanning for danger. So if let's look at a big T trauma instance. So if you were in a car accident and you broke a bone and you had to go to the hospital and you went through this, you know, long rehab process to get better, it would be natural for you to, when you get back on the road driving again, for you to be scanning for danger at all times because you don't want to be in another accident like that, right? So you would be looking uh almost hyper-vigilant of all the cars around you where it may make you lose focus from what you're actually trying to do, which is drive safely on the road, right? So it makes people be on edge. Now that's that's from a perspective of driving, right? Something that you are doing that's task-oriented. But what about relationally? Same thing. Someone who has experienced complex PTSD. So relational trauma is someone who's always going to be scanning for danger within the relationship. Again, you have the anxious attachment style, you have the avoidant attachment style. You typically, in this type of case, when trauma is involved, you're typically talking about a fearful avoidant, which is the disorganized attachment style. So this is the person who is scanning for danger within the relationship. They overanalyze every single interaction, anything that seems to feel like a disconnect, a rupture in the relationship, they're going to overthink it and they're going to start to seek connection in a way that is unhealthy, right? So they may become uh overly jealous or clingy of the other person to the point where everything that they do is questioned. Or they may do the opposite, where because they don't want to engage in that, they may completely pull back and not engage at all. I'd rather not be hurt, so I'm just gonna pull back and let's see if the person is able to turn to me and bring me comfort and safety that I need, right? So there's this effect of trauma of putting a person in this mode of scanning for danger, right? Additionally, we also see difficulty in sleeping, or they can also be easily triggered by sounds or smells. Again, usually these things are associated to the big T trauma, but again, when you've experienced something consistently for a long period of time, you can also develop these very same symptoms. Emotional numbness is another one, disconnecting in relationships, the inability to feel good or negative emotions, this emotional silence, if we can put it that way. You don't feel anything, nothing good, nothing bad, just blah. And again, it is better to shut down those emotions than to feel anything, and that's the effect that trauma has on people. Other things can be chronic pain, exhaustion that may have no medical explanation. You know, um, Dr. Bessel Vanderkook, he's mostly known for this book up here. I think you can see it, right? Um, Body Keeps the Score, he talks about um and really tries to explain that trauma doesn't just go away, right? It really does get lodged into the nervous system. He talks about this concept about how our bodies hold these stories. Your body remembers everything that happens to it. So whether that be a big T trauma or small T trauma, the body remembers. I remember speaking, I don't know if this was with um another colleague of mine who was an attachment expert expert as well. Um, but kind of we we discussed this idea of uh attachment is really about two nervous systems wanting to find a way to co-regulate. And that's hard to do when one or both of them have experienced trauma. In a relational context, usually we're referring to small T trauma, so we're usually referring to complex CP PTSD. So the body is going to remember certain things. And I often use this example of if you had a partner who cheated on you, right? And they were very kind of um, they're with their phone and they would hide their phone from you, and they kind of kept things to the side and wouldn't let you know what's going on. Your body, let's say you eventually found out that they were cheating, and you start to question at all times, you know, in your new relationship, when they do something similar to that, your body remembers that just feels it. Even though the person may not have given you any reason to doubt them, you start to kind of feel like, oh, this is this is weird. Like, why am I being so skeptical about what he or she is saying right now? This this doesn't feel right, something feels off, right? So that's kind of the body reminding you of, hey, you remember what this was when this happened to you? You better pay attention. You don't want to get hurt again, do you? So the body becomes hyper-roused by these different behaviors. If you're driving in a car and you are a passenger, and the person who's driving is kind of swerving through the road, that might remind you of a time when uh the part of your accident was that someone swerved into you, right? So you're super tense and your uh vigilance of every all your surroundings, and you probably even tell the driver to slow down and to maybe change the way they're driving, right? So these are just some of the ways in which it can show up in relationships and in everyday life. So the nervous system really does need to be rewired through consistency, through efficiency, meaning something that works, and through a long period of time. So, really, what trauma does is starts to distort your reality, whether that be in relationships or that be in everyday activities or everyday life, it really just shapes your mind into scanning for dangers. That's the probably the best way to put it is that trauma has this impact on you, on your mind, on your nervous system, that you now have to be in a position to scan for danger in order to avoid pain. So now the big question for us is okay, well, because that's happening, it would seem that everyone, especially if we include the relational trauma component, it would seem that most, if not all, people have experienced some levels of trauma. And I would say, yeah, I I think a lot of people have experienced a form of relational trauma. Okay. Remember, it's ongoing, even if it's small, right? Small offenses that build up over time, but they're consistent and they're ongoing, and it's for a long time, does have an effect on how you view yourself and how you view others. Again, we talk a little bit about this in attachment theory, which I've talked about extensively on the podcast. So feel free to check out some of those other episodes, but you really do or do put yourself in this place where you have to scan, scan for danger, right? So trauma does have that effect on you. So if everyone has experienced trauma or a lot of people have experienced trauma, does everyone, is everyone still dealing with trauma? And I think maybe that's where I have the problem with that. And not a problem in that someone has experienced trauma, but problem with people saying that the things that they've gone through and that they use the word trauma to describe those specific things. Okay, and here's what I mean by that. You've probably heard people say, oh, that was traumatic, or man, I my trauma really has impacted me a lot. And I do a lot of story work, okay, a lot of narrative type of therapy. And one of the things that is important as what's the message or what's the theme of your life as you share that story. And what's happening today is that a lot of people are narrating their story with the word trauma. Now, what I'm saying is that if you use the word trauma to define your story, you will behave in ways that kind of reinforce that idea. Okay. Why do we use the word trauma? Like, why do why do we say, uh, oh man, I well, I've really had some some really bad trauma from my past. And you know, this is how we have our conversations. If it's in counseling, I think that's different. But when it's in relationships and friendships and and you kind of describe your whole life uh on about trauma and all the trauma that you've experienced, I think that starts to shape your mind in such a way where we look for something from other people. And it's not compassion. I think in some instances it is seeking attention because you know, if you remember a couple of years ago, there was a a time where a lot of people on social media were sharing like these deepest, darkest traumas that they've experienced in their lives. And I remember thinking to myself, I'm like, I don't know if this is healthy. They were sharing about their abuse from a parent. They were sharing about family issues and family members that traumatized them from some of the words that they they said to them. They were sharing a lot about, you know, it it wasn't even it wasn't even, you know, these major issues like um you know sexual sexual abuse or anything like that. But there were other things that they would be sharing that were very personal. And I I started thinking to myself, I'm like, well, they're sharing this on social media to numerous people, I mean me thousands or hundreds of people at least, um, about this this really hard time in their life, and there's no safety there. And as you know, with attachment, one of the things that allows for people to be vulnerable is that they have a safe haven, someone to go to that will provide that safety and comfort. And you don't have that on social media. Maybe you have that, you know, we have people saying, Oh, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I can't, you know, look at you, you've overcome so much, right? So I think that those are the things really that we're looking for when we use the word trauma. We're looking for this affirmation of our of our stories, but it's done by people that don't really know us, right? So it does feel good. I'm not I'm not negating that. It does feel good when someone affirms your story and things that you've gone through. That's why I said it when you go to if you're going to counseling and you're having that language within counseling, I think that's fine because you are being tended to by someone who is a professional and and is doing good work. But when we do that in our families, with our friends, in our relationships, I think it starts to paint a different picture because we're expecting the same type of response from them that we're receiving from a counselor. Okay. And those people, those friends, those uh relationships and those family members, they're not counselors. So if we go to counseling, we know what healthy looks like, and then we want to take that same model and expect for other people to respond in the same way, which can create actually more pain. I hope that's making sense. The whole point of counseling is not so that you can come away with a new understanding so that people can treat you differently, but rather so you can make decisions and you can take steps towards healing that will help you grow from your own traumatic experiences to seek out relationships that will also help you grow. The counseling relationship is a model for you to know what to look for in everyday life, it's not a model for how you should expect people to treat you outside in real life. I hope that makes sense. Oftentimes people come to counseling because they want other people to change in the way that they treat them. When really counseling is about the change that you're going through, which allows you to make decisions and empowers you to move towards healing in the relationships, in the situations that you're in. Now, as Christians, one of the huge benefits that we have is that we have not just our relationship with community, church, family, friends, romantic relationships, spouses, so on. But we have a connection with God. He is our ultimate connection. He is the person that we turn to when no one else is around. So when I talk about trauma and when I talk about the narrative of trauma that you're creating for yourself outside of a counseling relationship, I think it's really important that you not use that word. Okay, and again, for some of you guys who are listening to this, you're like, this is probably breaking down a lot of what I've always thought. Because you, Sam, what you're saying is you don't think I really experienced trauma. And I just want to clarify again, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that you narrating your story as traumatic and seeing only the trauma and not focusing on the areas that you've grown in, I think that is what I'm pushing back on. That you rarely hear people who use the word trauma talk about how what they've learned and what they've grown through. Right. Now it's you might argue, well, how can I share with people what I've how I've grown and what I've learned if I don't tell them about the trauma, right? And I think that's a valid point. Yeah, I I I think that that makes sense to me. But what I usually see is that the focus is on the trauma and not on the growth. Like, how did you from that experience grow closer to the Lord? What did that experience teach you about relationships? What did it teach you about boundaries? What did it teach you about healthy attachments? Right. So we don't really focus on these things, we focus on the trauma. Oh, I really went through this traumatic experience, and you know, yeah, my mom was like this, and my dad was like this, and this ex was you just treating me. They were so narcissistic, blah, blah, blah, this and that. And um, you know, then my job, you know, my boss, my this. So that's the story. That's the story that people keep on repeating. So it brings on this sense of sympathy uh from other people or this attention, and it doesn't allow for other people to learn from that growth. So I hope what you're hearing from what I'm about to share right now is that for you to focus on what you're learning, right? Kind of orienting your story to the positive. What have you learned? How have you grown? And if you focus on that, your story is gonna sound so much different than it just being one of trauma. It's gonna sound so much different. It's gonna sound more of redemption, provide more opportunity for maybe even sharing the gospel of how the Lord has brought you through that time, how a close friend or family has stuck with you throughout those difficult times, right? So you focus on the positive on what you learned and what the Lord has taught you and where you are today, not on the trauma. Okay, so I really want to make sure that that's clear today. That I'm not minimizing trauma, whether it be big T trauma or small T trauma. What I'm saying is as you're narrating your story, that you focus on what you've been learning throughout the process. And if you start highlighting that, I think that is really gonna help you grow even more. Now, trauma shapes our view not only of ourselves, of other people, and ultimately our view of God, right? Our early attachments, the way that we bond with our parents or caregivers, shape how we relate to others, and it's gonna shape how we relate to God. And when we talk about small te trauma, usually those offenses happen within relationships, which is gonna make us more aware of the types of relationships that we enter. And again, we're gonna be scanning for danger. And even with God, when something bad happens, what do some people, some Christians, uh, might say, um, Lord, where were you in all of this? Like, why did you allow this to happen? Like, if you're, you know, I've been obedient, I've I've loved you all this time, and why did you allow this to happen? Right? You start to feel unseen and maybe start to see God as distant, right? If you're hurt by someone who was an authority. In the church, you might project that mistrust onto God. And right, this is a big part of kind of our uh our God concept, the way that we think about God is influenced by our interactions with people, especially specifically people who claim faith, right? It's usually people who are in authority or authority figures within the church, right? So if they do something that contradicts the word of God, in our minds we change, we change, uh, we start to shift in our understanding of God. So our God concept starts to change. Well, maybe God's not really faithful, or maybe he doesn't really love me. He doesn't really want to protect me, right? And then there's another part, which I've talked about before too, the God image, which is how we feel about God, that starts to change too, because now we feel this anger and distrust and um yeah, even disappointment with people within the church. So now we start to see God kind of in the same way. It's like, Lord, well, I don't like this feeling, right? And if we're very um emotionally driven, you're gonna go by that. I don't like this feeling. So the only way to avoid that to remove that feeling is to avoid it, right? So, yes, trauma is is rampant, and I do see it in the lives of many people, right? Many people have experienced it at some point in their lives. Um, the more recent, obviously, the stronger it's gonna feel, the more you're gonna see a lot of these symptoms that I discussed early on. And the farther back it is, maybe you don't feel it as much, or maybe you're just now starting to process it because it's starting to show up in your relationships. You weren't even aware of it, and then someone does something in a relationship and it triggers you, and you're like, whoa, where's this coming from? Right? So maybe you're just now becoming aware of it. So, what I hope that I'm able to leave you with is that don't define your life by those traumatic events. Start to talk about your realization, maybe, of it in your life and how you want to work through it. Like, what do you want to see at the end of your healing journey? Right? How is God going to heal you from this wound that you had growing up? Right, because he does play a role in it. We talk often a lot of because these things happen in relationships, it's not just the body, it's not just the mind, it's not just the emotions that get hurt, the soul gets hurt, right? Our spirits get weary because of what we've experienced in relationships, right? So, how do we invite God into that to allow him to do a work in our lives? Well, one of the ways in which we do that, we do that through prayer. We seek God, we rely on him heavily. I mean, think of just the little baby child who fully depends on the mother, just full dependence. That is how we need to be when we have been hurt by other people. Just Lord, this is a shock to me. I can't believe that this happened. Where am I gonna turn, right? What I classically call the Peter moment, right? When Jesus was having doing all these miracles and he was healing people, and he fed the people, and all the people that were following him, they wanted to see more. And when Jesus didn't, they ended up leaving, right? And uh then Jesus turns to his disciples and he says, you know, will you guys leave me as well? And then one of the best quotes that Peter has ever stated in Scripture, where he says, Lord, where do we go? Where do we go? You have the words of eternal life, right? The best possible response. And I I call that Peter moment in the lives of many of us, many Christians, where if you don't know God, you're gonna turn to things that are not good for you. You're gonna turn to vices, addictions, um, turn to unhealthy people, unhealthy habits, right? So if you don't know Christ, you're gonna turn to things that bring provide a sense of relief, a sense of disconnect, um, a sense of numbness, right? So we seek God because we want for him to heal us. So we do that through prayer, we do it through reading his word, read his word, read through the psalms. If anything, that's actually a good, great place to start. If you're experiencing any type of emotional pain, just start reading through the Psalms, read them out loud, and you're gonna see how helpful that is for you. Right? So seek God out through prayer, seek him out in his word, and and as I always say too, seek him out in the Christian community. The Lord uses the church, the Lord uses other believers, our brothers and sisters in Christ, to bear our burdens together, as it says in Galatians 6 2. We bear each other's burdens, and in so doing, we fulfill the law of Christ. So the takeaway is when you narrate your story, narrate the things that God is teaching you along the way, and your story is gonna come out very different than if you focus only on the traumatic event. This was a tough one to share with you guys today, but I think it I think I communicated clearly what I wanted to say about trauma, and I hope that it's a blessing for you. And next week we'll talk even more about what this actually looks like and how to find healing through that as well. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in again. Um, I hope that this is a blessing, and I will talk to you guys next week. Take care.