God Attachment Healing
Hi everyone! Welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Sam Landa. This podcast is dedicated to Christians who want to understand why they relate to God in the way they do. I explore how our early childhood relationship with our parents--specifically with how they met or did not meet our needs--influences how we relate to ourselves, the church, and to God. Because much of the pains and struggles of life are intertwined in these three areas, I discuss with my guests how we can find healing from the pain, confusion, doubt, and anger experienced in these relationships. If you're interested in learning more about your attachment style and how to heal from the pain you’ve experienced in the relationships mentioned above, then this podcast is for you. Welcome to the show! I'm happy you're here!
God Attachment Healing
Finding Joy Amid Loss: A Christian Perspective on Grief w/ Dr. Jerri Woodbridge
Send Me Questions on Attachment
What happens when grief arrives unexpectedly, shattering the life you carefully built? Dr. Jerry Woodbridge knows this terrain intimately. After losing her husband to cancer just one day after his diagnosis, she found herself navigating not only her own grief but also guiding her children through theirs.
In this profound conversation, Dr. Woodbridge dispels common misconceptions about the grieving process. Forget the neat, orderly stages you've heard about—grief is more like "having a thousand hornets around your head" or bouncing on a trampoline while attempting to climb stairs. You make progress, fall back, bounce up again, and repeat in an unpredictable cycle that doesn't follow a timetable.
The discussion delves into how grief fundamentally challenges our identity. For Dr. Woodbridge, becoming a widow at 42 wasn't part of her plan. "I made a choice to become a wife," she explains, "I did not say yes to becoming a widow." This identity crisis led to honest, sometimes angry conversations with God that ultimately strengthened her faith through Scripture passages specifically addressing God's care for widows.
Perhaps most eye-opening is Dr. Woodbridge's insight into children's grief. Adults often try to shield children from pain or expect them to bounce back quickly, not realizing this approach can lead to unresolved grief manifesting later as identity issues, risky behaviors, and spiritual struggles. Her experience inspired her to write children's books about grief, filling a crucial gap in literature for middle-grade readers who need narratives validating their experiences.
A beautiful metaphor emerges: both sorrow and joy can coexist like liquids in a coffee cup, with love serving as the bridge between them. We grieve because we love, and eventually, that same love allows us to experience joy again—not as a replacement for our loss, but alongside it.
Whether you're currently walking through grief or supporting someone who is, this episode offers both comfort and practical wisdom. As Dr. Woodbridge reminds us, "You have to heal before you reveal," and sometimes the path to the high places of joy necessarily travels through the valleys of sorrow and suffering.
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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
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All right, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. We are getting close to episode 100, and I'm really excited because these next couple of episodes are real, special, very timely for a lot of things that are going on in my life and the lives of many others. But yeah, today I want to welcome Dr Woodbridge. She is going to introduce herself in a little bit, but we're going to be talking about grief today and, as you guys know, if you've been following the podcast, we talk about many issues that deal with how Christians can cope with pain, can work through struggles and ultimately connect with God and connect with each other. So I'm excited about today's episode and I'm looking forward to you guys hearing your questions or anything about it. But yeah, Dr Woodbridge, would you do us the honor of just kind of introducing yourself, sharing your background and experience and anything that adds to this topic?
Speaker 2:Wow Okay, adds to this topic. Wow, okay. Well, I experienced loss early in my marriage with my husband and that was through pregnancy loss. So we lost some babies during that time. So God very quickly taught me early on about how I should navigate my grief. He taught me that he's there for me, that he loves me, and I came to terms with my own little ones being in the arms of Jesus. And what better place could they be if they could not be in my arms. So I learned early on that way Probably should backtrack a little bit. Yeah, I had a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ when I was six years old.
Speaker 2:I, my parents, had just divorced, I was kind of staying with my grandparents some of the time and we had gone in for a surgery, a tonsillectomy, which is pretty common surgery for young children. But I woke up when I was recovering, you know, at their home. I woke up in the middle of the night, bleeding, you know. The stitches had come undone from from. The stitches are from the tonsillectomy, and so I ended up having to be rushed back to the hospital, get a transfusion, you know, get everything under control, redo the surgery and then go home.
Speaker 2:Well, my grandparents had been taking me to church during that time. So I was very familiar with this tall, dark, dark gentleman, you know, he's kind of kind of a bigger man, but his name was Reverend Winters, and I saw him come into my hospital room and I told him. I said the Lord saved my life, so I need you to baptize me. So. So I had a kind of an early inkling, you, that god, god had done something special for me, and while he did not say yes to baptism right away, it took four years for me to coax him and tell him that I really actually did understand.
Speaker 2:It wasn't more than it was, more than just saving my life, but it was. I understood what it was all about. Um, so I've had an early, I would say, an attachment to god since that time. So when you are a child and you trust god, you trust him implicitly. You know there, you know no, oh, if you'll do this for me. No, it's kind of like okay, you said it, you meant it, I'm here to represent it.
Speaker 1:So yeah well, dr Woodridge, as you kind of shared a little bit about that, I know we want to transition or discuss about grief. Yeah, where would? Where would we be a good start for us to talk about grief, maybe defining it?
Speaker 2:Yes, I think it is that unexpected moment of pain, of loss. I mean, I wrote, I wrote in the beginning for children. Children were on my heart because of my own children experiencing grief from the sudden loss of their dad. He had passed away suddenly. We had a diagnosis on thursday um of colon cancer and friday he died. It was that quick, oh wow. So it was very sudden. So the the book I wrote wrote was about the sudden loss of a dad, and so I chose to write from a girl's point of view at this point. It's a 10-year-old girl, joy Overcame Sorrow and she lost her dad suddenly from a car accident. Because that was kind of like the situation that my kids found themselves in.
Speaker 2:Even though we had a cancer diagnosis, we had no anticipated grief. So how do you deal with this sudden loss? So this first book is going to focus on a sudden loss. The second book will probably focus somewhere on a sudden loss, but it'll be like a twin loss, because the siblings, you know, and that special connection, um, but I do see writing more books and someone may say, why would you want to write books for children about grief? The reason why is because these children there's a lot of picture books out there and and they're great, you know, when you lose your dog, you know, lose your grandparent they're wonderful for that age group.
Speaker 2:But what was missing was the narration, was the story, where they could follow a character that actually went through grief. See, maybe there's some ways that we can navigate the grief. I mean, this is just one person's journey and then what can we learn from that? You know, how can we support each other? Because when I was trying to get back into social media, I was off for a couple years and trying to get back into social media, because this is what you do when you promote your book, right Is?
Speaker 2:I found that there were adults with unresolved grief because they had lost someone when they were young.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And I was just like wow, and I was just like wow.
Speaker 2:You know I wasn't aware. You know when I started this process that you know that that's really kind of what we want to take away from this is how can we help children? The grief is there. They have to face it. They go through it. We all go through it.
Speaker 2:I was going through it as a mom. You know I did. You know I had a choice to get married. I said yes and then I did not have a choice when my husband died, so I became a widow. I did not say yes to that, had to talk to the Lord about that and single parenthood. But you know these are why we need to have the conversations, yeah, and so I know when I was going through my grief process early on first year, you're supposed to try to keep everything normal that's what they advise anyway and you know, to offer stability and I thought that was a good idea as a parent to try to do that. Second year I needed a job, so I moved to cross country. So I had a new job, new house. Again. Grief came in little moments but you know I kind of suppressed it somewhat. Um, didn't really focus on it. But year three, grief was like I'm not leaving you alone until you deal with me. Really what?
Speaker 1:did that look like.
Speaker 2:I would say it's like having a thousand hornets around your head, you know, trying to. You know, get you to focus and look at all these different emotions, because we know grief is not step, step, step, step. Um, I saw a really good youtube video of a guy that's climbing a staircase and below is the trampoline, so they're playing like this beautiful violin music, and the guy's climbing up the staircase and then he falls okay, moment of grief bounces back up, bounces back up on the chair on the stairs. You know, over and over and over again, this keeps happening. That's what grief is like. It's more like a swirl.
Speaker 2:You never know you don't know when the grief triggers are going to happen. You don't know what's going to cause a grief trigger. I know when I was taking ballroom dance class I had a breakdown right on the ballroom dance floor during the lesson. Because when life feels out of control, it can stir up panic attacks. It could stir up all these feelings of grief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was there any connection to that with something with your husband or it was just a random moment?
Speaker 2:I think it was a moment of frustration because it's like I was trying so hard to learn the pattern. You know, I mean I went. I chose to go ballroom dancing because number one, music is very healing for me, yeah, you know, and I needed to move. I was tired of being stuck. I needed to be moved and all the connections I had with other couples from with my husband, I didn't feel like they were. I never wanted another woman to feel unsafe around me, so I withdrew. But I needed to find another social network that I could have some kind of social connection. I needed to learn who is Jerry without Dave?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was a tough transition.
Speaker 2:It was but my daughter and I. My daughter was in the car with me.
Speaker 2:We drove up. I passed Arthur Murray studio many, many times during that six months and finally I just said, hey, julie, julie, go in with me for moral support. And she did. And this dance studio owner and instructor, I will always appreciate him, ahmed. He was Egyptian, he knew the gift of hospitality. He welcomed him in with, you know, with both arms. He's like, oh, I see the price of I can get money from two of these beautiful ladies. But he really made a difference in helping us to heal.
Speaker 1:What was it? Did he do anything specifically? Was it just kind of being present, providing community?
Speaker 2:Like what was? I think it was his presence. He was one of those people. It's like if he walked in the door, sam, he'd be like hey, sam, come over here. Let me introduce you to Jerry. So he was a connector. I mean he was a connector, he was definitely. He formed a community of people that just cared about each other. Yeah, that's awesome. So I mean, obviously we were all kind of tuned in with the dancing, but it was more than that, it was a community.
Speaker 1:For me, yeah, yeah, you know, dr Woodridge, I work with a lot of trauma clients and one of the biggest buffers that they can implement to mitigate the effect of a traumatic event is to have strong social support. But, as you were sharing, I think one of the things that happens is that sometimes the person receives strong social support initially and then it slowly fades away and, for whatever reason, you know it'd be that everyone starts getting busy, or we realize it's just a moment in time, or, you know, people just move on with their lives, but the person who's experiencing the grief continues to wrestle with that. Who's experiencing the grief continues to wrestle with that. You know, and I imagine the picture that you painted of um. He said uh, you know, when I lost my husband I didn't sign up for that, so I had to have a conversation with him about that, with god, about that, right, you know?
Speaker 1:tell me about that, what was that like? Because I mean, it's not a, it's not a one-time conversation, you know no no, it's not conversation, you know.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not. It revolved around my identity. It's like, okay, you know, I made choices. You know, yes, I made a choice. I became a teacher, as part of my identity. I made a choice to serve the Lord. That's part of my identity. I made a choice to become a wife. That was my identity. I made a choice to have children. That became my identity. But then, when one of those pieces that I made a choice from it felt completely out of control, what do I do? And who am I now? Because I'm 42. I was 42 when I lost my husband. And what do I do now? How am I supposed to, you know, raise my children in the way that I know my husband and I would have liked our children to be raised, and how can I do that? So you know financial restrictions, you know. So you know financial restrictions, you know just society. I mean this hurry up and find someone else and move along. No, that doesn't work.
Speaker 2:Well, I felt a lot. I felt there was pressure because everybody looks at you like oh, you're young, you can still like, not really because I'm invested, you know, with my family.
Speaker 2:So it was definitely an identity thing. So I had to go. I wrote a chapter in my first book, this little widow's devotional book that I created, called Trading my Stars for the Joy of the Lord, and I wrote a chapter called Mrs who. Because who am I, who am I in your eyes, lord? Because who am I, who am I in your eyes, lord?
Speaker 2:And when you start studying scripture and I think we as a Christian community and community in general need to study a little bit more it says that God will protect and provide and keep the widow's boundaries intact. So woe to those who mess with us, because when they're not messing with us, they're messing with them. But having that understanding of oh okay, you know, made me feel less alone. You know, like you know, I had God on my side. You know he saw me. As you know, like you know, I had God on my side. You know he saw me, as you know, someone precious. You know that he was going to provide and protect, as well as my children, and then I could have confidence, you know, to continue to do what he called me to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Were there times where you were angry at God.
Speaker 2:Oh, sure, okay he can handle it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, what were those conversations like? I think it's funny, because in Christian communities.
Speaker 1:I often think that, especially when we're sharing with others, like you know, so hard. I went through this, but I trusted the Lord. But we, we almost hide the difficult conversations that we have with the Lord where, lord I don't. Why did you do this to me? I've been faithful, I've been doing this, I've been doing that. I thought I was going in the right direction, and then why did you allow this to happen? You know typical conversations. Was that pretty familiar?
Speaker 2:Pretty familiar and, and the fact is is I knew without a shadow of a doubt that the Lord had provided my husband for me. Knew, without a shadow of a doubt, and I'm trying to remember why I knew that, but I did. I knew even before we started going out. Really. That I was going to marry him. Yeah, I told my mom on the airplane as we were flying up to New Hampshire that's where she was still living at the time and I said I know who I'm going to marry, I just knew.
Speaker 1:Were you guys friends beforehand or you just knew him from around?
Speaker 2:We were friends. I had graduated from college Eastern Nazarene College and gone to get my first job in a Christian school and met him in the singles group there at our church. That was part of that Christian school. Our church, that was part of that Christian school. And it was interesting because God gave me who I needed, Because there had been a lot of other childhood trauma in my life.
Speaker 2:And David was that person that could help heal me, that could help support me and believe in me Before he passed away. We went on a trip and the trip was for me to go present my dissertation results at a conference. So he had supported me the whole time while I'm going through the process, when I'd gone through the masters, when I'd gone through changing different jobs with teaching, all of this, and he sat in the round it was a round table presentation and he just kind of sat back and watched and then he came to me and goes you know, that's the first time I actually understood what you were doing and I was just like that was such a gift that that god had provided that he got to see what he helped to support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, no, it's really great. I love that. Um, you know, I'm thinking about that, about that conversation of anger towards the Lord. One of the concepts in attachment is this idea of rupture and repair. You know those moments like that where something's taken or when we feel like God's being unjust, there's this rupture between our relationship with God. It's like, ah, you know Lord.
Speaker 1:I'm not liking you right now, I'm not liking this, but what creates a safety or secure attachment to God is the repair piece. How do we repair this? So what was that repair process looking like for you? How did God repair your trust in him? Or just yeah, what was the repair process like for you?
Speaker 2:seeking answers because I, you know, I wanted to know, okay, who, who am I and who are you, and how, how are we going? How are we going to get through this? Um, so you know, going back to the, to the scriptures, it wasn't a holier than thou kind of thing, it was kind of like I need answers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and you know, again, with the, with the journal, writing um, capturing, capturing that little hornet and putting it down on paper allowed me to focus on one thought, one idea look through scripture, through that, so that I I could get some resolution. Yeah, too, because it's not just like, okay, well, you know, it's god's will blah, blah, blah, you know that's that's not really helpful, people, right?
Speaker 2:um, you know, we have to know, we have to learn for ourselves and we have to be able to trust for ourselves and we have to be able to trust that what he says he will do. And so when I had all those scriptures kind of laid out and studied and, you know, record it in my journal or whatever, then I could start saying, okay, I can see how he's teaching me, how he's helping me, you know how he's still with me, and and then I could uh, get some resolution. Now I was invited to go to a writer conference, um, kind of a last minute thing affiliated with my work, and, um, I didn't know what I was going to do, I I just grabbed, I just went home, packed up because it was the last minute thing grabbed my journals and went there, and that's when the widow's devotional um came about, that's when that idea was promoted. But why I wrote, joy overcame sorrow was because I wanted to do a tedx speech oh, really, I did, did you apply, did you submit everything?
Speaker 2:I applied, I had backstage passes. I went to a meeting with a group of businesswomen for the next day and I told them what I wanted to talk about and they're like we don't really understand what you're going to do.
Speaker 2:Are you going to dance on stage? You know what I'm like. I'm going to talk about how. You know how this helped me. So they looked at me like I had three horns on my head and so when you get nervous like that, you get put on the spot, you start elaborating and I'm going. Well, I'm a teacher. So you know I've taught. You know, like I've had a fifth grader you know boy that had lost his dad to cancer a few years prior to me having him in my class. So because I understood I'd experienced the grieving process, I was more aware and more attuned to what he was going through. So they looked at me and they said you should write a children's book. My first response was not joy it was annoying.
Speaker 2:But um, but then that little idea just kind of you know, tickled my ear and I'm like uh well, let's give it a try, let's see, let's see what can happen. It just took me a little bit longer than I wanted to figure it out. Yeah, because I'd never written fiction before. You write academic, you write poetry.
Speaker 1:I mean you write newspapers.
Speaker 2:I feel, yeah, that that's a hard transition yeah it was a hard transition, and then figuring out that the books that are out there available for children, especially for middle grade readers, is not really talking about this subject at all. Yeah. There might be a couple books out there, like Bridge Over Terabithia, that talks about a loss of a friend, very good friend. But, it's not the whole book and it's not talking about the grief journey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. So, with that being said, you know I'm thinking about the situation you coming to widow, single mother now, and not just managing your own emotions with grief, but also trying to figure out how are your children feeling throughout this process, you know, and how they're grieving, the process and you know to your point, you know I know we briefly talked about this just the idea of, yeah, children are resilient, but that resilience also comes with a lot of support from their surroundings be parents, be x in the family members church, um, yeah, but to your point, it can be a misconception. Tell us more about that. What's the misunderstanding that people have about how children grieve?
Speaker 2:I think we want to protect our children from feeling pain. Yeah, so we entertain them, we don't talk about it. Or, you know, we only talk about it when we have to kind of thing, because we're taking our cues from them, when it's probably more like we're so overwhelmed with our own grief that we may not be as observant or as empathetic at that point because we're we're hurt ourselves. Yeah, so if we can help children have something where they can learn the skills without it being quite right there to them, you know, like, like, joy isn't as a fictional character, but I have to tell you, a friend of mine gave a book to a little boy, uh, that had just lost his grandmother and he's reading in church and he comes to her after church and he says so how do you know joy?
Speaker 2:so the character is relatable, so they have to be authentic and relatable. But you watch her just go through her journey and it's she knows at the end of the book she's not done grieving. But she realizes something her grief is tied to her con, her love for her father. She loves her dad. She will always be grieving.
Speaker 2:There will always be, never will moments you know that she wished he could be there for um. You know that she wished he could be there for um, but she says the sorrow is fading, not because of time, because of how she's processed that's good because, because she, she was given a journal by her.
Speaker 2:well, this is, this is what I produced, but she's given a journal by her cousin april, and her cousin April said hey, joy, I'm going to give you this journal so you can write all the good memories of all the things that people are talking about your dad when we go to the funeral.
Speaker 2:Which was brilliant, it was insightful, it was like, yes, because children are so afraid that they're going to forget their loved one, that they're going to forget. They so afraid that they're going to forget their loved one, that they're going to forget, they're not going to know their voice anymore, that they're not going to, you know, recognize them in pictures and things like that. So these are things that we have to think about how can we preserve their loved one's memories but also, taking cues from them, what they need? So joy happened to start recording those things that people would say, and then she found that was an outlet for her to write about her dad and record her memories so she does not forget him. And so now she doesn't just have a sad book, she has all the good things, all the wonderful things that she can carry with her um, not only in the book, but in her heart, yeah, and and heal. And now she can embrace her name, which her dad gave her for a reason.
Speaker 1:I remember hearing one time this illustration of grief is very much like this. They say like a box I don't know if they say like a box of flowers or just a box, closed box that you carry around with you all the time and you don't really address until people ask you about it. And as they know your story, does that seem like a fair? So you're carrying around the grief and people say, hey, what do you got there? Oh, let me tell you about it To your point. Kind of these highlight memories of positive things that they do remember about the person that they lost. Would that be a fair way to express that? Or how would you describe that?
Speaker 2:Would that be a fair way to express that or how would you describe that? I have a coffee cup and I think this is brilliant. I mean, I didn't do it, it wasn't my idea, but when I saw it I said brilliant, it was a coffee cup. Now, what can you pour in a coffee cup? Can you pour sorrow? Yes. Can you pour joy? Can your coffee cup hold both? Yes. So here's the bridge between sorrow and joy is love.
Speaker 2:So I I have a picture in my head and I put it on my social media. It's basically got a footbridge. You know has two points right over here. Here's joy, here sorrow. When we are in grief, it's because of our love for that person. We miss them. We love them. Okay, when we are rejoicing, like wow, you're doing a podcast, Sam, you know that's because we love Sam. You know we're rejoicing so we can have both in our hearts at the same time. Yeah. And that connection is our love. Right right.
Speaker 1:So it's not either or Was that a time thing to understand? Because I could almost imagine, at least when I think about losses that I personally have experienced. There's these real deep moments of sorrow, and if I'm there then it's impossible for me to experience joy at the same time or experience happiness or contentment when I'm experiencing sorrow. But I think to the point that you're making. I think with time we start to realize that I can try to access both of those at the same time when needed, Because I think the sorrow provides the memory of man that was a tough loss. And then there's the gratefulness is the other word I was looking for, and the gratefulness for well, you know, the time that we did have together.
Speaker 2:I appreciated, and now I can appreciate that in other people that are around me, and that makes me grateful, but I still feel sad, like sure, I mean, I don't think it's a trade-off, I don't think we have to give one up for the other, you know, but can we hold both of them in our hearts? Yeah, absolutely. So I do think that sometimes we, um, we miss the fact that a joke or a funny story really does help people who've lost loved ones. I mean, we all think we have to be all stoic and you know, you know all respectful or whatever, but the people who really knew your loved one are gonna have those stories and that and that those are their memories yeah um, and so it's.
Speaker 2:It's part of that sharing um your heart with another person in the community. So I I do believe that we're very good at sympathy. We're not really great about empathy. So I tell it in the book the story of Bella, the best friend of Joy, who just wants things to go back to normal. You know, I know you lost your dad. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to go back to normal. You know, I know you lost your dad. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but I just want to be able to ride bikes with you and go to the butterfly garden and do all these other things, you know, with you. I miss you. You know, that's basically what she's trying to get across to joy, but joy keeps pushing her away because part of that is envy and part of that is joy. I mean, bella still has a dad. Mm, hmm, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, so. But Joy's very wise mom says Bella, let's talk you, I know what you want to do, I know you want your friend back. I understand, but right now Joy needs just somebody to sit with her, listen to her, do nothing with her, just be with her. Yeah, just be present. And so that's another lesson that I really hope children can learn. Yeah. Is that they don't have to fix it. Can we fix it? Can we fix our children's grief? Can we?
Speaker 2:fix it? Can we fix our children's grief? All we can do is listen and be available and be present and you know and try to support.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting because I think when we most people's attempts at being empathetic is saying the right thing, and I think the point that we're making here is, no, sometimes there are no words to say, it's just be there. Just be there, and they feel that presence more than words that may not make sense at the time or that aren't helpful. Really, presence is very powerful. You mentioned earlier that we don't often allow kids to grieve and if they don't grieve, then they kind of carry that over into their young adulthood. So, for those who are listening, my audience is about 22 to 44 around there. So young adults or even older adults that never really dealt with their grief, you know what are some ways, I guess, in which grief manifests itself in, you know, young adults, just adults in general. What does it look like?
Speaker 2:Well, it's definitely going to affect their identity, and we know, especially you know, as teens or young adults, you, you know, when it does affect your identity, it can also put you in the category of risky behavior, mm-hmm. So so I'm gonna use an example. My son was 12. He's having panic attacks. I didn't know it, hmm, and in his mind he thought he was going to die, just like his dad. Suddenly.
Speaker 2:Okay. So if you carry that idea, those thoughts because your parents or your loved ones around you don't know what's going on, that can lead into riskier behaviors. Yeah. Because you're just trying to find something that's going to make you feel better mm-hmm so, you know, I think it can go into that, I think you can. It affects them spiritually for sure, because our, our parent, our father represent, you know, and God, that relationship is fatherly. So if there's no reconciliation from losing that earthly father, that's going to impact your heavenly father relationship.
Speaker 2:I also think behavior outbursts. Like I said, I was on dance floor, didn't know what was happening, I was getting a little frustrated and then boo-hoo, it was bad. And poor Arnold, he didn't know what to do with me because he wasn't my usual teacher. But yeah, we don't know when those moments or triggers are going to happen. You know, kids get in trouble and all of a sudden we're like what happened, and people who have not had grief or been attuned to what that kid is going through may look at that as just oh, that was just a bad decision, bad action, Whereas there might be something more to it than that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's withdrawal, avoidance, risk-taking behaviors yeah, and there's that, you're right. There's that misunderstanding of when they are going through something and behaving in ways that don't really make sense from their typical behavior.
Speaker 2:You know it's unaddressed grief or other problems you know, know, and they may not even know why they're doing it exactly, exactly, yeah so you know, they're still processing. So finally, when my son was 17, he came and told me I was having panic attacks. I'm like really, I didn't know because, because how, how I would have responded at that point if I had that piece of information, would have been different.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, but I just, you know, that's why I always kind of bring that up, because it's something that we're not always self-aware yeah, that panic attacks and grief go hand in hand.
Speaker 2:And then, when you have moments where you feel out of control, all of a sudden you got it, and so how can we deal with the anxiety? How can we teach our children even emotional self-regulation? You know, when you get angry, when you get really frustrated, hey, stop breathe. You know, allow that oxygen to get to your brain. You know, allow that oxygen to get to your brain so you can make a better decision than just taking a train and throwing it across the room.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, so these are ways that I think you know impact children. And then we have, like my daughter she suffered with depression prior to losing her dad, but yeah so we had to kind of be real aware of how his death was impacting her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and with teenagers and young adults, when they see their parents suffering, they often don't share because they don't want to add more to the parents' plate, you know. And so they're there wrestling with it themselves, feeling not isolated but lonely, or wrestling through those things themselves until the parent either comes to an understanding of their own grief and then is able to share with their children, or, if they're just there present with them. But yeah, oftentimes I do see, especially with the oldest one, like the oldest one feels like this burden, okay, I have to be there for my younger siblings and then I don't want to burden my mom or dad with this, and so on. So there's a lot going on, right, yeah, so I can definitely see all that.
Speaker 2:It is definitely more complex so I can definitely see all that. It is definitely more complex um but it's a universal experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so okay. So how did? How did me losing babies, you know, that promise of you know, you know, having another son or daughter, um, you know, set me up for maybe the next loss? Well, because I came to terms with it and because my relationship still was solid with the Lord and and with my family, um, I had that support that helped. I mean, I still had a different experience to go through, still had to deal with all the grief, but at least I had some background to understand what I was feeling and what I was going through with children and and teenagers that have never had that exposure.
Speaker 2:They don't yeah so we have to, um, we have to be their voice. Yeah, you know we have to share these stories and, you know, have these discussions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I agree, you know, as believers, you know our experience of grief is similar to anyone's, but it's how we respond that may be different to how others may respond. You know some, maybe non-believers, and maybe even some believers do this as well, but mostly non-believers where they turn to either vices or other addictions or things like that. But for us, as believers, what role does faith play in processing loss and rediscovering joy, which are two very hard things to you know, put together in the same sentence, right, loss and joy? Um, but yeah, can you share with us a little bit about what that was like to be comforted by god's word?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean we've got psalm uh 34, 18, which says the lord is close to the brokenhearted and saves those who are crushed in spirit. That tells me he's got a special place in his heart for me, you know, because brokenhearted. Okay, so he's not overlooking me. He's not telling me okay, get in line, move on. He's saying I'm here to minister to you.
Speaker 2:He also says do not fear, for I am with you. Do not be dismayed, for I'm your God. I will strengthen you and help you. I will uphold you with my righteous right hand. Isaiah 41 10. May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace, as you trust in him. Okay, there's no other where to get hope Then from him when you are experiencing such devastating loss. There just isn't. I mean, you can try a lot of things, but all you're doing is you're just kind of spinning your wheels until you finally wear yourself out long enough to listen to God and say, okay, I got it. And then you know we have the hope in Revelations 21. 21 4. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning, or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. Revelations 21 4. So we have this hope that, okay, what we're feeling now is not never ending. We, we are going to experience joy, I mean when we are with our loved ones, with in heaven. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:I mean after jesus christ went down and got the keys with the keys, how the hell and he went and loosed the, the bosom of abraham, and all you know, all the people there, like king david, and you know all the people that could not be quote saved until jesus came back. But they had, you know, they listened to the message, they were waiting for him. They're like, we're ready let's go.
Speaker 2:But uh, you know, same thing. I had a friend, you know, early on when I lost these babies and, um, you know, I was feeling kind of sad. So I was talking to her and she's like you, lucky duck, and I went what she goes. You have four heavenly deposits in heaven already, you know, to your name. They're waiting for you and I'm like I never thought of it that way, but isn't that what we believe?
Speaker 1:yeah, I love, uh, I love how you mentioned how your test becomes your testimony to share with others and in one of your responses, um and this is actually one of my favorite passages as well that you listed second corinthians 3 to 5, that praise be to the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion, the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves receive from God. This is actually one of the verses that led me to pursue counseling the pain that was experienced and understanding that, and trying to be there for other people. I think God used this verse to speak to me regarding that, and it sounds like it's the same here for you as well.
Speaker 2:And I appreciate that it's part of the healing process, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to be able to minister to others.
Speaker 2:To be able to minister to others. Yeah, because it's like saying take this pain, god, your redemptive God, you can redeem this pain and make it work and benefit and help others. That's our, that's his plan, that's that's I mean. If we have no other understanding other than pain, usually there is a purpose somewhere. Yeah. But if we give it to him, he can redeem it and he can use it to help others. That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I agree, Dr Woodbridge. This has been a great conversation. You know, it kind of leaves us here at the end of someone listening someone experiencing some sort of pain, some sort of loss, is grieving something, someone right now. What would you share with them as a piece of advice, some steps to take, as they're currently grieving a loss?
Speaker 2:First of all, I want to acknowledge your pain because it is real and your pain comes from the deep love that you had for this person and there is no replacement for this person. Um, and there is no easy exit off of the grief process process. You will have to go through this process. How you make meaning out of the process is really up to you, but I would encourage you, seek the Father's heart, ask him the question, tell him I am angry, I need, I don't want to be angry with you, lord, but right now I'm angry because nothing makes sense.
Speaker 2:So please renew my mind, renew my heart, help me get to a place of healing so that maybe they are a parent, then they can be more available to help their children, or maybe they are a friend and somebody is going through cancer, so that they can use their pain and know that they can heal from it. You got to heal before you reveal and once you have an understanding of that, you can be a better human being or person in life, because you you have a better understanding what joy is all about. I don't think you really truly understand joy without knowing sorrow. Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2:My favorite children's book is Hinds Feet on High Places by Hannah Hunard, and the Great Shepherd gives Much Afraid the main character, two companions sorrow and suffering to help her get to the high places. Because she's crippled, she's got a crooked mouth.
Speaker 2:You know she needs help to be able to go to the high places because she's crippled, she's got a crooked mouth. She, you know she needs help to be able to go to the high places. And when she finally embraces the sorrow and the suffering, they get her to the high places. And then the lord changes her name from much afraid to grace and glory beautiful. Beautiful story. Get the children's version. It's very, very powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Thank you, dr Woodbridge. I really appreciate your time and sharing your story and also giving some great insights here on grief, and I know it's going to be a blessing. I actually have a couple of people in mind who are going through right now a season of deep, deep, painful grief and they listen to the podcast, so hopefully this is a blessing. But, yeah, thank you for your time, hope we can do some other time, some time.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, I love it. I love it.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, Dr Woodbridge. You have a good evening, okay.
Speaker 2:All right, thank you.