God Attachment Healing
Hi everyone! Welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Sam Landa. This podcast is dedicated to Christians who want to understand why they relate to God in the way they do. I explore how our early childhood relationship with our parents--specifically with how they met or did not meet our needs--influences how we relate to ourselves, the church, and to God. Because much of the pains and struggles of life are intertwined in these three areas, I discuss with my guests how we can find healing from the pain, confusion, doubt, and anger experienced in these relationships. If you're interested in learning more about your attachment style and how to heal from the pain you’ve experienced in the relationships mentioned above, then this podcast is for you. Welcome to the show! I'm happy you're here!
God Attachment Healing
Bridging Theology and Psychology in Trauma Recovery
Send Me Questions on Attachment
The complex relationship between faith and psychology takes center stage in this third installment of our shame series with theologian Jason Glenn. What happens when biblical understanding meets modern psychology? Can they coexist, or are they fundamentally at odds?
This rich conversation explores the suspicion many Christians hold toward therapeutic approaches, while acknowledging the growing recognition that faith practices positively impact mental health. Jason shares his perspective on how the counseling field has often prioritized making people "feel at peace with who they are" over addressing deeper spiritual needs, yet he also challenges harmful Christian misconceptions that equate mental health struggles with spiritual failure.
Through powerful personal stories, Jason reveals how his parents helped him navigate shame in psychologically and spiritually healthy ways. His mother's object lesson of burning written sins to illustrate God's forgiveness offered him a way to "disassociate my identity in Christ from my past sins" – creating resilience while maintaining appropriate conviction. Such formative experiences show how theology and psychology can work together rather than in opposition.
The discussion ventures into provocative territory when examining how church culture has shifted from fire-and-brimstone approaches to sometimes overcorrecting with therapeutic methods that prioritize affirmation over accountability. As Jason notes, "If the good news doesn't speak to your victimhood, it's not good news" has become an unspoken assumption in many congregations, reflecting how psychological concepts have subtly reshaped theological understanding.
For anyone struggling to reconcile their faith journey with psychological healing, this conversation offers a thoughtful middle path – one that honors both our complex psychological reality and timeless biblical truth. Whether you're a counselor, pastor, or simply someone navigating your own healing journey, you'll find wisdom for approaching shame in ways that lead to genuine transformation rather than either denial or identity-consuming guilt.
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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
All right, everyone, as always, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm here again with my friend, jason Glenn, talking about shame, and we are in the third part of this series and really excited to have a great conversation so far really outlining the differences between shame, guilt and conviction, which was the last episode that we did, and the first one was the biblical role of shame in the life of a Christian. And today we're going to talk about maybe some theological and trauma-informed differences. So more kind of counseling, biblical, and see where there's overlap and maybe where there's some differences. And again, just Jason, thanks for being on the podcast. I really enjoyed having you on the show.
Speaker 1:Really deep conversations, great insights on this aspect of shame that I hadn't even thought of before. I love the examples that you've been providing and again, this is just has been a blessed conversation. So thank you for that. Yeah, and now, as part of our third part of this series, talking about how this responds or how this correlates to the counseling field and maybe how the church has dealt with shame in general. But a question that may be I don't know if it'll be surprising but just as we've had our conversations about shame and how the Bible talks about it, and even how modern psychology or counseling has kind of addressed it. How do you feel about counseling this aspect of shame in people? Because I think, as we've had our conversations, not that you maybe see it in a negative light, but there's been maybe how the counseling field has approached shame or just maybe mental health issues in general, there seems to be some opposition to it or maybe some there's some prejudice.
Speaker 2:There's some prejudice, for sure.
Speaker 1:Okay. So yeah, just curious about that. I mean, I understand your background. I came from Southern Baptist background, latino background, so the idea of going into the counseling field for me as a profession was not the easiest route. Regarding my upbringing and culture.
Speaker 2:It was a shameful move, my friend. A shameful move.
Speaker 1:It was and it honestly did, did very much feel like that. Where are you going to get into psychology Like don't?
Speaker 2:you know that you might as well have gone into alcohol. You know distribution for goodness sake, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there's this whole thing about it that I had to go through an experience of. You know, why are you going into counseling? Like you know, psychology just kind of removes the responsibility from people. You know, counseling is just kind of for the weak-minded. You know Jesus is enough. Like why do people even need counseling? So that's kind of what I grew up with and I had to really wrestle with a lot of those concepts and how does the bible inform my approach to counseling? So I I nailed that down. I feel like I have a good approach and how I address things through a christian worldview, uh, christian lens. And yeah, just wanted to get your thoughts in general. What have you seen, because it's going to tie into our, our topic today of uh, yeah, what have you seen in the counseling field that you feel hesitant about or caution people about modern psychology or counseling?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, totally, and and let me clarify again, I appreciate the work of a lot of counselors doing really positive things with the Word of God. Uh is is becoming a narrow and narrower road in many cases in terms of regulation and what you can say and can't say, um, and how you can counsel and can't counsel. So I, I I have some sympathy uh for that, because I, these are dear Christian friends who love the Lord uh deeply and feel trapped uh at times, and some have just simply left uh the vocation and gone on to. You know, some have landed in some good church counseling positions, you know, some private, newthetic sort of counseling, biblical counseling, and so I appreciate those opportunities for them. But all that to say yes, I've observed in my lifetime and of course it started well before my lifetime in the counseling field this migration to therapeutic counseling to make the person feel at peace with who they are, as long as they are not hurting someone, including themselves, and that's the goal, as long as you're at peace with yourself, not hurting yourself, not hurting anybody else, job done. And that of course, can be done with drugs or, you know, with the use, the help of drugs, or of course it can be a which sometimes is necessary. I'm not saying there are certainly some issues, biologically, physically, that certainly necessitates the use of psychiatry, but I'm just saying this is the mode, this is the modus operandi of the whole system, and if they don't need drugs, then they use concepts of freedom, concepts of self-love of freedom, concepts of self-love that oftentimes are more akin to licentiousness, are more akin to theologically speaking self-delusion, where they adopt an identity that they can affirm and they jettison any voice or any conviction or any guilt or any shame that is ulterior to the identity that they can live with in a peaceful manner. That's what I have seen in counseling for decades and that's you know. Granted, again, not every counselor and lots of Christian counselors that intertwine, even carefully, they intertwine the scripture and biblical principles into their counseling and some of them do a great job and they never run into any lawsuits or or any pushback. And it's a beautiful thing and and I'm a man, I'm thankful for it because they they're allowed the space to really help people according to what I would think the word of God would have them help people. And and again, it's not. I'm not just talking about newthetic biblical counselors only. There are certainly great concepts that we've learned from psychology and philosophy. Uh, and that's, that's a part of my.
Speaker 2:My dissertation is wrestling is wrestling with, um, primitive shame versus, uh, a mature understanding of shame? Yeah, working with holding right and attachment concepts and how that relates to shame. So that's I have to. I've got to read, you know, that stuff and try to figure out. Okay, how do we address this from a biblical, theological space that validates, you know, the presence of a type of shame where I can say it's a healthy thing, even though there is some truth to the fact that there's primitive shame. There is primitive shame that, if carried with you in a narcissistic way, is very unhealthy. So it's, yeah. So all that to say. I agree with so much, but I do disagree with a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and you know, you you made the point there about the, the limitations that are being placed on, uh, counselors who are Christian or who have Christian counselor settings and so on, and I think there's been a shift in the last two to three years of people acknowledging you know, even in the secular world the importance of the way that they'll say it is, the importance of religion in a person's life. So it's called religiosity, where the practices that you do are helpful to your overall mental health, to your wellbeing. So, seeking out community, praying, having meals together, all of these things that we do as part of the church that they're seeing, yeah, these things are helpful and it makes perfect sense when we think about how God created us. He created us for connection, for relationships, so all of those things that may have been pushed back a number of years ago, it sounds like counselors are starting to see that and saying, hey, you know what? There is something about this that contributes to a person's overall mental health.
Speaker 1:Again, for us, we see clients as a whole. Right, it's not just physical, mental and emotional, but we see the spiritual piece that people are trying to meet that need through these various ways. And a big push was, and I actually did an episode with a girl who came out of this Gosh. Why is it escaping me? Not the New Ages? What am I thinking about?
Speaker 2:The cult.
Speaker 1:Not the cult. The buffet of religions that people can turn to and pick and choose from all these different things.
Speaker 2:Oh okay, pluralism or something like that, yeah, yeah. Or something like that, yeah, yeah like new age spirituality.
Speaker 1:That's the word.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:So this new age spirituality where it's the way that she described it was I like this from this religion, I like this from this religion, and so on, and I found out that at the end of it it was empty, Because it was just doing certain things to try to fill this spiritual need that I had.
Speaker 1:It was just doing certain things to try to fill this spiritual need that I had until I found Jesus. Was that need met right? So where we can take this conversation, I think, is when we talk about the theological understanding're not addressing the spiritual. Then everything else is going to be off right.
Speaker 1:But in reality it seems that people can be good in their physical, mental and emotional and be very off in their spiritual being or the opposite side. They can be very good in their spiritual being or the opposite side. They can be very good on their spiritual side, and this is maybe where you can add to this part here, where they can be in right relationship with God but may also be struggling mentally, emotionally and physically Totally. Yeah, yeah, is there anything to add to?
Speaker 2:that there's so much, there's so much meat there. I mean we can. We can go in hundreds of different directions. Obviously there's a low-hanging fruit of chemical dependencies. There's a Christian that is an alcoholic, has been an alcoholic, that might need chemical or drug intervention to help them get through, to get off that addiction. There might be the Christian that struggles with schizophrenia, that struggles with obsessive compulsive disorder. Right, and yes, there are Christians out there and, man, I'm sure you've got your own feelings and convictions about this. But there are Christians out there that said, well, if they're still struggling with obsessive compulsive disorder, if they're still struggling with bipolar disorder, then they, to your point, they haven't got their spirituality right, they aren't truly a Christian. Holy Spirit really isn't abiding in them. You hear that every now and then from people and you're like I think your bodies are a bit more complex. You know it's. It's it's kind of like saying, oh did, did your, did your dad get alzheimer's man? I can't believe he lost his salvation you know, because all of a sudden it is.
Speaker 2:he doesn't know who he is and his body's not working right, his mind's not working right. Does that mean that now he's not right spiritually? Well, we would, most of us would say, well, that's nonsense, jason. But Does that mean that now he's not right spiritually? Well, most of us would say, well, that's nonsense, jason. But in many ways that's what we're talking about with some of these mental disabilities and biological disabilities that cause people to really struggle Christians, christians To really struggle with these issues. So, yeah, there's definitely a place in my book for psychiatry. Now do I think that drugs have been used in an improper way and overused and the wrong drugs used to address symptoms? And yeah, yes, yes, and that's a whole problem. But that doesn't mean that the desire to try to use this natural world to address these psychos, psychosomatic these, these, these mental and physical physiological problems, problems, is a bad thing. I mean, again, that's like saying, well, you know, they need a blood transfusion, but man, it's just, it's not right for us to actually put somebody else's blood inside that person.
Speaker 2:You know and there are some religions that believe that, right, you know, and there are some religions that believe that, right, um, but I think your average christian would say, let's, let's give that person some blood, you know, okay, uh. So, yeah, I definitely agree, uh, that counseling can serve, does serve, um, to really come alongside of spiritual truths. I really benefited. Early on my dad got a hold of, and I don't know when he first ran into it. He ran into a guy named Neil Anderson and I don't know if you've ever heard of Neil Anderson. He was out of Talbot Seminary, yeah, that's right. But Neil definitely did address the fact that we've we've got body issues as well as mind issues as well, as you know.
Speaker 2:So, uh, and early on, my dad handed me a list of who I am in Christ that Neil Anderson made up of all the verses that said all the things about who we literally are, what God says about who we are in Christ Jesus, and that list, the list of who we are in Christ. I read through that many times in my life. But get this, this is what my father had me do when I was, uh, I'd say maybe eight to ten years old. He had me speak into a microphone this list of who I am in christ, using pure scripture, and then on a tape recorder and then listen to the tape every single night before I went to bed. Call that biofeedback right, and that's a psychological tool. Um, it's a. Sometimes it's a counseling methodology. Um, but my dad had me listen to myself staying the scriptures of who I am in christ every night. For, I mean, I did it probably for a at least six months or so. How was that for you?
Speaker 2:I've never struggled with who I am in Jesus.
Speaker 1:Have I felt shame when you were going through the stage where you were rebelling against the Lord?
Speaker 2:No, even when I was rebelling, I felt ashamed for what I was doing and felt guilty about it. But then I would confess the sin and just do it again the next day. But I never doubted my identity in Christ. Maybe I should have right, but I didn't. And so when, when I, when I really became repentant, I had all of these things happen to me, my girlfriend, who I thought I was going to marry, broke up with me.
Speaker 2:I was going in the Marine Corps. I went to officer candidate school in Quantico. I had some run-ins with the leadership there. I wrote a bad check at a bar. Before I left, my mom called me and told me that there was a warrant out for my arrest, you know.
Speaker 2:So I'm sitting in the middle of, and my father was dying of cancer at the time. And so I'm at Quantico, I'm away, I'm in a horrible environment. It's very difficult, it's very lonely, it's hard. And I had all these things going on around me and I broke down and I was alone and I read the word of God alone in the barracks for the first time in a long time, when everybody else was off in Washington DC for the weekend because they got to go and I was being disciplined for my activities and so I couldn't go and I was alone and I read the word of God and I felt convicted in that moment that I was not being who I was supposed to be. So it was kind of a first breakthrough, if you will, of shame, real shame, conviction, real conviction, real exposure.
Speaker 2:And then I went back home, I got out of there, I left the Marine home, I got out of there, I left the Marine Corps, I got out of there and I was at a men's conference the spring semester of my senior year 1998. Uh, and it was some of these guys Rick Rigsby, I don't know if you know any of these guys, some of these guys are still going, they're still speaking at Thomas road Baptist, at conferences periodically. But it was a men's conference and I sat in the stadium with all these men and these guys, one after another, were getting up that wrote books on how to be a man and repentance and sin, and I felt this enormous sting come over me. And again I had been sleeping, I'd been fornicating, I had been being a drunk, abusive, and I had already walked away from the Marine Corps and I'd already started to change my activities but I still hadn't kind of borne the weight of who I'd been being to, I think, the degree that I needed to own it and I went back to my I took, I left the conference and went back to my dorm and I got on the phone with my parents and I started bawling, weeping, and I just, I just said mom, dad, I have, I have been slandering your, our name, um, I have been dragging our name through the mud and I have been not the man I was supposed to be and the Christian.
Speaker 2:So I'm weeping uncontrollably and that was my moment of contrition and it was shame that led to that contrition I appreciate you sharing that brother yeah it sounds like, uh, your shame.
Speaker 1:I guess one part speaks to the level of interest you have in it. And then there's this real powerful part of your story that ties into that as well, totally yeah um, you know, I'm curious what you think about people who grew up christian homes as well yeah and maybe had shaming parents maybe not in the way that you described. Like you know, we talked in our first episode of how we do that with our kids at times, but the shaming maybe of that example you gave of the restaurant where you mess everything up.
Speaker 1:You're good for nothing.
Speaker 1:You know the Lord can't love you because A, b and C, you know girl, the daughter gets pregnant at age 14, 15, and you know you're good for nothing. You're brushing and shaming things right, and that person comes into the counseling office and they have this level of shame. Their experience with shame is one of. This is who I am and the messaging is strong and this is where, from a biblical perspective, we know what the Bible teaches about that, about them being you. If they come to know the Lord, they repent, but they still have these ongoing thoughts and feelings about shame in general and feelings about shame in general, and the number one predictor or contributor to a client's growth is their experience with a counselor.
Speaker 1:One of the main reasons why I do the work that I do is that God provides these opportunities to meet people where they are and have them have a different experience, a corrective experience, than that that they have with their parents.
Speaker 1:So this aspect they come in with this level of I'm this, I'm that, and I'm not only sharing the opposite of that message, but the experience that they have with me in the session of compassion, loving graciousness, what the Lord has done in my life. Hopefully, presenting there in the session is what starts to bring about some of that shame from maybe some traumatic experience that they had growing up. Is that something that you see evidence in the scriptures? Scriptures there's so many people and obviously, reading through scriptures, there's so many people that by today's terms, and maybe even as you look and you're like wow, that was traumatic that we would say that was a traumatic instance and we don't get the story of what that process was like for them. We just know kind of what the end result was. Paul was probably someone who dealt with a lot of traumatic memories from what he did to Christians, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he had PTSD from everything. He had PTSD from everything. Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:Joseph, you know, being sold and enslaved by his brother. So all of these examples that we see in Scripture, we don't see the process of that, and I think that's one of the things I had to wrestle with a lot is that all we see is okay, here's what they went through and then the Lord showed up in this way. But that middle ground a lot of people struggle with that because they want that result that the Lord shows up and the ups and downs to get there causes doubt and confusion for them, and that's part of me walking with them.
Speaker 1:How would you explain that process? Because that is what we see, or do you see something different?
Speaker 2:No, man, I just I'm so fortunate. I am so fortunate I had a mother that really helped me understand God's grace. My father preached God's grace and he certainly understood God's grace, but he was not a great interpersonal communicator. His father was a drunkard, his mother was abusive. He came from the wrong side of the tracks. He just had a really hard, hard upbringing. His father would go, lose the paycheck and gambling card game and my dad would have to, as a teenager, go back into the card game, win his father's paycheck back, take it back home. Just a hard, hard environment. All that to say, my father didn't necessarily have the good one-on-one help me walk through some of the interpersonal, emotional, psychological struggles as a teenager and as an adolescent that I would have liked, but my mother actually did Right. Adolescent that I would have liked, but my mother actually did Right. And so one of the wonderful things my mom did with me early on as a child when I had a heavy, I got saved.
Speaker 2:When I was five and I would say that again, a lot of my story is having a very heavy conscience from a very early age and the Holy Spirit was with me, talking to me, convicting me, and I just could not get away with anything in myself. I would go and confess, confess, confess. And there were times when I was like Mom, I'm doing this again, I'm doing this again, does God really forgive me? Does God really forgive me? And I'm like Mom, I'm doing this again, I'm doing this again. Does God really forgive me? Does God really forgive me? And I'm like, I mean, I'm like six years old, seven years old, and my mom said, jason, let's go in the kitchen, let's sit on the floor. And she said write all of your sins on a piece of paper. And so I wrote them. And then she brought out this bowl and she brought out a lighter and she just lit them to flame and burned all those pieces of paper in front of me.
Speaker 2:She says, jason, that's what these are to God, right? So I had a mother that helped me to in some ways disassociate my identity in Christ from my past sins, if that makes sense, yeah, right, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. I was taught by my parents to not carry my, my sins, with me in my identity. Now, that's not to say that they didn't say stuff like jason, there you go again. You know, or you know, you're, you're. You just can't shut your mouth, can you?
Speaker 2:you know, you know, of course I get, I've got a bit of that right, but when it came down to those really deeply, um, internal struggles, uh, on issues of sin, my, my mom, uh, my father, gave me the biblical language, taught me scripture, gave me the verses, and my mom gave me a bit of the psychology, if you will, to help me to walk. And so when I talk to individuals and counsel them, young men, I disciple a lot of young men. I am walking them through the scriptures, I'm showing them that the scriptures identify the fact that they are sinners. They're still going to sin periodically. They might even sin more, you know, a lot more than they want to.
Speaker 2:However, if their faith is in Christ and they truly have repented and believed, they have a new identity, deal with the complexity of that old sin nature and the consequences of that sin that they dip and dive back into, while they are seeking to conform more perfectly in their actions and in their patterns and behaviors to their identity that is fixed and secured in Christ Jesus. So that's a complex, you know it's clearly a complex answer because you've got multiple identities that you're dealing with. Because you've got multiple identities that you're dealing with, you've got who you are in Christ and then who you were and who you have a tendency to still be and act upon on the daily. That the Bible gives you and that a counselor can give you, that a community of accountability can give you, to try and continue to conform more perfectly to the image of Christ Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, brother, absolutely. And you were 5'6 at this stage, when you're being taught these things. And I think the other important piece of this is that there are these stages of life that we go through that show us different aspects of god's character, different experiences, right? So when you become a teenager, I remember, just to show my, my sister, I was like um, I think I was like listening to this music and it was like it would cost and all these things. And I told her you know, I recommitted my life to christ. I think I was like 12, no, I was like 15 or something. And I told her you want to see how committed I am?
Speaker 1:and I grabbed all my cds and just broke them like here's how committed I am, so trying to show all these things, because in that time I felt convicted about that and I felt like she was judging me, like you're not really a good example to me. I'm the oldest of four, so you're not really being a good example, and in my teenage mind that for me was a level of commitment. But then it felt fake because then I went right back to it. I still liked it and I felt guilty about it.
Speaker 2:So all of these things, these different stages of life that just show us different aspects of who god is and how he shows up in those moments, and our little commitment yeah, no, I, I get that with young guy, with young, young college students, guys and girls that I've, I've, I've counseled in my role as a teacher and just discipling. Um, I was saved at seven. Uh, things were good, went off, I was in high school and got it with the wrong crowd and I had sex and I started doing drugs or man, I got into pornography and, uh, man, mr gwen, I just uh, I don't, I don't think I'm saved, I don't and I'm saved and I'm like right, let's walk through this, you know, to your point.
Speaker 2:Because the mistake in my opinion and of course sometimes they're certainly, I'm sure sometimes they're not actually saved yeah, let's just get that out of the way but oftentimes they most certainly are. They most certainly are a Christian. The Spirit of God most certainly abides in them.
Speaker 2:The mistake is, I reached a different phase of life and I didn't know how to control my flesh. I didn't have the resources to address the temptation sources, to address the temptation. I wasn't mature enough, didn't have the community of support to help me to walk my faith into this new place in life. I had never experienced the power of that particular type of temptation before and I gave in, and I gave in and I gave in and now I don't think that I ever was saved, because I'm giving into this temptation that I had never experienced when I was young and when I was with Christ, when I was a Christian, when I was a good Christian and I truly believed or I truly was faithful. But this must mean maybe I'm not a Christian after all. So these stages of life are huge when it comes to emotional health, psychological health and spiritual health and how they all blend together and determine the thought life for a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And you know we talked about the stages of life and the part where identity really starts to get formed in the life of a person really starts in that adolescent age. You know, where we're reaching for different things to see who we identify with, who's our group, who's not. So one of the things I think that I see in practice, especially when we talk about identity, trauma, shame and all these different things, is it's during that period of adolescence where children are reaching out for different things, different groups, to find their identity, and a big part of that is the parent's role within that. And whatever is going on in that time for that child is the message that they're getting, whether it be indirectly or directly, right.
Speaker 1:So, for example, the dynamic has changed a lot in our culture around the presence of parents within the home. So when both parents are working outside of the home and children get home and there's no one there, there's this belief that creeps in that I'm not really cared for. I kind of have to fend for myself. Mom and dad are doing what they're doing and that's just what they have to do, but there's this element of neglect. Right, that's how it's perceived at an experiential level for a lot of these students. So, yeah, so that's changed the conversation a lot. So one of the things that's been hard for me as a Christian counselor is how do I deal with that dynamic that they bring into, this feeling of being neglected? Even though that may not be what the parents wanted to communicate, that is what they understood from it. So it's hard because you're not denying the experience but at the same time, you're trying to help them understand, maybe, some of the realities that happen in life and it's hard.
Speaker 2:No, it is. Yeah, again, I don't need to say this in a pejorative way, but the victim mindset is huge, it's huge and it is taken over, at least. And if there's, if there's a movement away from it. You know, praise, praise, god, um, but the? But psychologists got and counselors got so used to looking for the victim in every patient. Yeah, yeah, I would agree with that. And is there, is there another side to that? Is there, is there the pastor, or the Sunday school teacher or the parent that looks for, you know, the criminal on every child? Sure, yeah, and, and this, this is where counseling comes into play. Right To work with people that have been banged up, by people that didn't articulate the gospel with compassion and balance.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, the counseling psychology industry has just been looking for and validating every ounce of the victim that they can find. And that, I think, ultimately, is probably what? Because this started decades ago. Yeah, um, that's probably what really started this whole anti-shame movement, because shame is inherently tied to victim and if you treat the victim in the wrong way or ignore the fact that they are a victim, then you are inherently shaming them and it makes the victim feel bad. It doesn't help them to come out of their hurt and their pain and into a flourishing life, and we want to create safe spaces where the victims will never be shamed, and we want to create school systems where the identity that they have chosen, where they can be at peace with themselves and not hurt anybody, is that has to be protected from any ounce of something that would make them feel ashamed, which is impossible, which, of course, is impossible, I mean one of the ways you know you mentioned.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's moving away from the victim mindset, but there is a lot of research on the topic of resilience and that is a space where, at least for me and a number of other Christian counselors where there's this focus of okay, well, okay, you went through that, you're here today, how did you get through that? And you're here today. And that's the focus, as opposed to what maybe secular accounts may focus on is that was so horrible? And maybe they keep them in that mindset. As a matter of fact, they've even done research on what brings healing is not talking about the past.
Speaker 1:It's using that understanding to behave or to start implementing certain behaviors now to change the narrative, moving forward right yeah and you need to focus on what kept you resilient throughout that time and in faith communities, it's you know what for me it was. When this happened with my parents, the church really came and supported, uh me throughout that process. They were there for me. I got involved in awana. I had a great, you know, youth pastor. Whatever the case is, there's these aspects of how the church helps people cope with those difficulties and that becomes the focus, and this is again goes back to the idea of how does faith play a role in mental health, exactly like we're talking about it Usually, through community, the influence of a mentor, someone involved in the process that helps them through that stage of life, discipleship, right, we see that in Scripture as well.
Speaker 1:So I just love that that has become part of the conversation now, because it is something that we need to focus on. We can't focus on that victim mentality because, again, that just keeps people in that state of mind.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the end game of resiliency and I do. Yeah, I've heard of that and I've looked into it a little bit. I think so much of that is intuitive to scripture, right? Um, and? And it's that balance that I was talking about earlier. It's the balance of jason you're a sinner, you're broken and you're gonna do sinful things. However, in christ, you're a new creation and old things have passed away and all things have become new and you are given, via the Holy Spirit, the means to act upon this new person that you are. Yes, it's hard, yes, it takes time to learn.
Speaker 2:Romans 12, 1 and 2, like do not conform any longer to the pattern, pattern this world. Be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you'll be able to test and improve. What god's will is is good, pleasing, perfect will, right. So it's in the text where we have an old person who is bent towards sin, destruction, uh, selfishness, egotistical ambition, whatever the case, self-preservation at the expense of others. We have that person with us, but we have this as a Christian, this new creation, and we need to work on renewing our mind about how that new creation sees things, how he acts on things, how he loves things and people and how he approaches life and how he approaches pain, how he approaches offense and being insulted right.
Speaker 2:And this is where I say the end game.
Speaker 2:The end game of resiliency, in my opinion, is getting that person that has now recognized church as being a part of their coping and has recognized church as a part of their formative and has recognized church as a part of their formative safe place to grow and to be affirmed in the right things.
Speaker 2:The endgame is to get them to the point where they don't need that constant affirmation and they don't view the church for what it can give to them ideally and primarily, but they view it as the place where god has called them to serve and to minister and to be available, uh, and to and and and to be taught and to glean right. Because all too often when a victim-mindsetted person leans over and grabs the church as that safe place that just ministers to them and doesn't harm them, then they see the church that way, and when a violation comes in, as it most certainly always does, given enough time, then their association of their pain comes back to the church Right, and the church is no longer that safe place anymore, and so the end game is to help them get beyond that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the focus that you were mentioning there seems to be on what is self-serving and not what is ultimately going to be. What can I give to others? Based off what I received from the church, because I think I encounter more, especially for those who grew up in the church. They have a good understanding of their fallen nature, their wretchedness, of their sinful acts. They have a good understanding. What they have a difficult time understanding is grace, patience and love. Like they, because they usually grow with parents who are a little bit more the harsher or more critical side. Like they get it. Like that makes sense. No, this is the Bible. The Bible teaches this and that. That was me right.
Speaker 1:But having a hard time understanding what grace and patience and love is because that's seen as weak or it's seen as, oh, you're justifying someone's behavior because you're not addressing the root issue. But no, someone's behavior because you're not addressing the root issue. But no, it's this new experience with people from the church or a specific person that shows a different side of God's character. You're already very well aware of your fallenness and sometimes overemphasizing that keeps you stuck in it. So when you experience grace from someone else and patience and love now, it's like, okay, this is new for me, but I still understand my fallenness. But now I'm understanding.
Speaker 1:This new aspect of God's character is like that he still loves me, right, and that's the hard part that people have those who grew up in the church. Now, those who did not grow up in the church they've lived their life they think you know, well, you know God's going to accept me anyways. They come to the Lord and they realize, oh no, I got to change my life around. This is not pleasing to the Lord. So for them, the hard part, for them to accept that first is all these new ways of living life, of giving of myself to other people. Well, people hurt me, why would I give to?
Speaker 2:them.
Speaker 1:Well, that's kind of part of being self-sacrificial. That's what Jesus did for us and so on. So it really comes down to at least the way that it's approached in my setting is what does the client need? And if they receive that message of always, of just being a sinful, wretched person, then what they're gonna need in the counseling session is how they experienced me as a counselor, with the grace, mercy, compassion, peace, and hopefully the goal is that they find a balance between those two, cause you usually have people on either side either all justice, all wrath, all you know, fire, brimstone and then you have over here all grace, all love, all mercy and no judgment. Right, it's trying to help either one see the other side and find a balance in that, in their yeah I just these days, sam, I just don't run into that fire and brimstone.
Speaker 2:I can't remember the last time I did. Yeah, you know, I'm sure I'm. It's probably out there in certain denominations.
Speaker 1:You see more of the other side now. Like the more grace that everything passed non-judgmental oh yeah, totally in the evangelical churches.
Speaker 2:I have not seen this highly judgmental fire and brimstone thing. I don't know for years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:again because they've adopted therapeutic psychology.
Speaker 1:That's true, they have become and which drives me nuts. By the way, I hate when, from the pulpit Again, because they've adopted therapeutic psychology. That's true, they have become, which drives me nuts. By the way, I hate when, from the pulpit, pastors are trying to teach pop psychology. That's the approach. Just teach the scriptures, man, stick to your lane. But they're trying to approach all these principles. Talk in psychology, leave that separate.
Speaker 2:That's my perspective on it yeah, but, and again, you have to remember that, uh, these things have woven themselves into systematic theology and they've been done.
Speaker 2:They've done so for the past 100 years.
Speaker 2:So we're not, we're not talking about, necessarily, just about, uh, you know, winnicott holding, and, and, and we're not talking about these stages of life that appeared, um, uh, you know, in the, in in the last 50 years, although you know that's certainly a part of it.
Speaker 2:We're talking about Kierkegaard and we're talking about Hegel, and we're talking about a lot of other postmodern philosophers that have been feeding theologians, that have been teaching pastors in their seminaries for over 100 years now on these issues of identity, on these issues of how do you address sin, and the pastor and the youth minister and the biblical counselor are just as concerned about making their parishioners feel good as the counselor is, to bringing peace to them, as the counselor is, and and and, of course, yes, um, the counselor, god willing, has gone to school for it, and at least they're experts in the particular, supposed to be in that particular ideology and field. And so, yeah, the youth minister might think he understands some things, or the pastor might think he understands some things clinically that he doesn't actually understand. But there's enough integration of what we would call liberal theology that has been informed by German idealism, right that you know you're going to get these understandings of the therapeutic reality in our churches and in our small groups and in our church, our pastor's offices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it almost seems like it's so much right Because both of them are dealing with the person. Both fields are, and one, at least from a pastor perspective, it seems it's more congregational, more community, and with a counselor it's individual. I feel like a lot of times pastors are just so overwhelmed with all the other stuff going on within the church that to really actually walk with someone through something, uh, it's, it's too much right. And that's where I advocate a lot for, you know, for those of us who are counselors in the field and have a christian worldview, that's, you know, we need to be able to be there for that.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, good resources good churches, yeah, good churches with you know. You know, for those that hold to the normal model, that are successful oftentimes, will bring on a pastoral counseling minister and have them on staff, and that's a beautiful thing. But you're right, a lot of pastors feel indebted to speak to the victimhood of all of their parishioners. Yeah, because what, sam, what the average Christian in the United States has been told for the last several decades, is, if the good news doesn't speak to your victimhood, it's not good news. And so if you're a pastor attempting to convince your congregation that you've got good news to them and that the Bible is good news, you've got to convince yourself through study and through maybe adopting some ideology and reading up some books, and you've got to convince your congregation that the gospel speaks directly to the victimhood that is being addressed constantly in our day and time. Yeah, yeah, in our day and time. Yeah, yeah, and you're right, there are tragic consequences to that that were never intended, but they are realities.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:That's good, Bro. We could keep on going.
Speaker 2:We could talk forever.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate you so much, bro. This has been a great conversation. I think we've got some three solid episodes here. Obviously, there's always more that we can discuss. Hopefully in the future we can link up again and have some more conversations.
Speaker 2:You bet, but thank you for your time.
Speaker 1:Thank you, sam. I know the audience is going to really appreciate these conversations, so thank you, brother, god willing, those of you who are listening. Thanks for tuning in and I'll see you next time.