Shame, Guilt, and Conviction: Debilitating or Transformational?

What's the difference between shame, guilt, and conviction in the Christian life? This question haunts many believers who struggle to navigate these complex emotions in their spiritual journey. 

Jason Glenn returns to unpack these crucial distinctions, revealing that the popular modern psychological framing of these terms often misaligns with biblical understanding. While contemporary culture frequently treats shame as an inherent negative to be eliminated, Scripture presents a more nuanced perspective where shame can serve redemptive purposes.

Our conversation explores biblical guilt as primarily a judicial status rather than an emotion—it's about causality and responsibility before God. Conviction emerges as the Holy Spirit's illuminating work, exposing our hearts and guiding us toward repentance. Shame, meanwhile, addresses our failures in relationship to our identity and community expectations.

We tackle difficult questions about debilitating shame versus healthy contrition. When Christians remain stuck in shame cycles, the problem often isn't shame itself but underlying pride, fear, or the strange comfort found in familiar self-condemnation. The gospel offers freedom from these patterns, though embracing this freedom requires significant faith and courage.

The discussion turns to Jesus' own use of corrective shame in the story of Simon the Pharisee and the sinful woman. While affirming the contrite woman's response to her shame—which brought forgiveness—Jesus exposed Simon's pride through a form of redemptive shame that invited self-reflection.

Whether you've struggled with persistent shame, confused conviction with guilt, or wondered how these emotions fit into your spiritual growth, this episode offers biblical clarity and practical wisdom for your journey toward wholeness in Christ. As Jason reminds us, "We should be more focused on the feeling of shame and less focused on shaming people."

Chapters

• 0:00 Differentiating Shame, Guilt, and Conviction
• 10:05 Biblical Understanding of Guilt vs. Shame
• 16:44 Subjective Morality and Personal Convictions
• 25:59 When Shame Becomes Debilitating
• 33:42 No Condemnation Yet Rightful Contrition
• 38:13 Jesus, Shame, and the Pharisee's House

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

All right, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. We are moving into episode two, or part two, of our conversation on shame. I'm here with Mr Jason Glenn, who is our expert on biblical shame, and we've had a great conversation last time about biblical shame and its role in the life of the Christian, and today we're going to talk about a very important topic, which is shame, guilt and conviction. So how do we differentiate between these? Are they different? What's the role of each one? And we'll even get into seeing how this is helpful just for the church community in general. But, jason, as always, good to have you back in. I mean, we just basically paused and got back on. Here we are. This is how we do episodes, guys. This is how it's done.

Speaker 1: 0:57

Same time right here Absolutely so, yeah, so last time we were talking about the role of shame, how it influences Christian life, when it should be used, we ended kind of the conversation on um, how we uh shame, I guess, people, or how we use it in the context of the church or in the Christian life. And today, as we're talking about this part shame, guilt and conviction it's, I guess, delineating between those three. So just to kind of pass the ball off to you, jason, when you hear about these three concepts, they're very closely tied together, right, and I think most Christians do have a difficult time discerning. Is this shame that I'm feeling it guilt? Is it conviction? I mean, I see I can see it on both sides, for one who doesn't want to make someone feel ashamed or wants to maybe provide a sense of conviction, which only the holy spirit does, as we know but then there's other people yeah, and then there's other people who who it and they oftentimes may feel ashamed of things that maybe don't require that feeling right.

Speaker 1: 2:10

So we could talk about, like, those gray areas, like for someone. You know, if someone drinks, has a drink, is that? Should they be feeling shame for that? Some cultures do it, or some church cultures do that, and maybe that's a gray area. I know people have different stances on that, um, so we'll talk a little bit about all those things, but just in general, uh are, what are the differences between these three terms that we'll be using?

Speaker 2: 2:36

yeah, um, just let me start with just the biblical uh understanding, and this is this is where there's a lot of misunderstanding, I think, on this issue, this issue, um. So, in terms of the actual word guilt, um, I you know I'm not the great in pronouncing greek terms, but uh, it itos, uh is. That is a Greek term that's used for guilt and it has far more to do with fault and causality and a judicial understanding. So you see, it used all through Old Testament and New Testament in terms of they were guilty of this infraction, they were guilt, they had guilt before the Lord because of what they did. They needed to then perform a guilt offering.

Speaker 2: 3:40

We're speaking of Old Testament issues here. They had whole things set up for various guilt offerings for various infractions. You touch a dead animal right, there are various. You wear the wrong clothing, you come in contact with a woman in her menstrual cycle these aren't shameful things, but they incur guilt, they incur some sort of infraction, transgression that has to be atoned for. In the Old Testament and in the New Testament, again, the guilt conversation is almost exclusively connected to large concepts of sin that are addressed with Jesus and grace. We are, you know, in our guilt. He comes and saves us, but it's really most of the time that the New Testament translates something as guilt. It's not the word's not there, it's a context. They did the wrong thing um would that be like a transgression?

Speaker 1: 5:10

wouldn't that be like?

Speaker 2: 5:12

sometimes. Sometimes it's sin. Yeah, sometimes it's sin language and they were, they were caught in their sin and all of a sudden, that's now they were guilty, right. And so again, there is a term in the New Testament, but that term isn't often used and so most of the time it's simply a reference to a judicial standing before God or before a king or before a people or authority figure, and it just is not a normative concept when it comes to moral infractions that you feel something about. It's not a feeling. It really.

Speaker 2: 6:08

Let's just, let's just clarify that in the new Testament, guilt is not a feeling. It's not nowhere, nowhere is. Is it really played out, as it is a status you are the cause. That again, that's you are the cause of the thing. And they inspected him and he was found to have not been the cause. That'll be the Greek, but in the translation it'll say he was found not guilty or no guilt was found on him.

Speaker 2: 6:43

So that's the sort of use of guilt and conviction. You know you already stepped it home. It's the Holy Spirit, and that's the sort of language that is used in the New Testament is the Spirit will be sent to come, and the term that's kind of translated conviction is most of the time like exposure inspection. Let's see if I wrote down anything else here. Reproved there's, reproved to convict. They will feel convicted in their heart again in a judicial stance. Um, we again the john 16, 8, the holy spirit coming.

Speaker 2: 7:33

That passage, um, first corinthians passage uses 14, 24, when when the, the gathering of believers and an unbeliever walks in, it uses the term elenco and that is to expose, to convict. It has their thoughts exposed and they feel convicted and they fall on their face and worship, you know, or in repentance. But yes, it does seem to be convict, does seem to have that connotation of an act of God and an inward exposure. So in some ways it's more. In some ways it's kind of tied to both shame and guilt. Right, the conviction piece. Yeah, the conviction piece, because it does, it is showing you your status before the authority, god, and it is exposing you to yourself and to others, and then the whole idea is that that will cause some sort of contrition in you.

Speaker 1: 9:01

Yeah, and I think we addressed this last time too, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong I think the way that we defined the last time was kind of guilt was this idea of I did something bad and the shame part was I am bad, and both of them have a role in in this walk. And you know, one of the questions that comes up for me when I think about these particular concepts is that there are some people who have this strong certainty of this is the Holy Spirit convicting me of this right? And so it could be. And this was kind of one of the points that I made, I think, in the last episode was that they could say I feel so convicted by the Holy Spirit that I shouldn't drink alcohol anymore. Or I feel so convicted by Holy Spirit that I shouldn't go visit my in-laws because they're toxic, right.

Speaker 1: 9:56

So how do you discern? Because, again, when someone says that we know that they're using an authority, higher authority, that's being god right, and that is kind of like the stamp of approval on their behavior and this is why you can do that or not do that, right. So it's hard to argue with someone who says, well, this is what god told me to do, and the word that they'll use. I feel convicted by it, yeah, and maybe they'll even use it like I feel convicted in needing to tell you this. So, yeah, this needs to be addressed. So how do we differentiate, I guess, between the holy spirit's leading and someone who has a uh, either a sensitive or more stronger, a stronger conscience about certain?

Speaker 2: 10:39

things. Yeah, you, yeah, I mean of all. You always take them to the text and show them what the text says. You always take them to scriptures and go here's all. We have on the subject, um, or have in the past talked about the fact that there is a subjective element to our relationship, our moral relationship to god. It's not and because that's a big, that's a big conversation in christian ethics is objective morality right there, there's right and there's wrong. Well, yes, but there's also subjective wrong before God, and it relates exactly to what you're talking about Eating food, certain foods, meat. Paul talks about drinking alcohol, worshiping on certain Sabbath days and festival days, or not keeping them or not keeping them. The text says that some people are extra sensitive, feel convicted that drinking alcohol is a sin, and then the text says to them it is a sin.

Speaker 2: 12:01

Right sin right, so I? And? And then also says who am I to judge that person? Because they answer to god. So, on the issues of, of, um, ambiguous activities, uh, that are approved, uh are not. You know, there are abuses of them, but there's nothing, there's no prohibition against them. However, they are things that people feel convicted not to do, and we have. We have things like watching R-rated movies or, you know, smoking, smoking cigarettes or cigars or whatever. There are lots of things in the Christian, even among the Christian community, where we're like, yeah, so-and-so doesn't feel convicted that they can do that, you know. Or so-and-so doesn't shop at Target because, well, target, you know, has trans bathrooms, you know. I just I can give them principles of freedom from the text and show them what Scripture says about the those things, but at the end of the day, I I have to say that's between them and the holy spirit, and who am I to say that the holy spirit actually didn't place them on, on that conviction on their heart, um, but I can say, oh, god has convicted me that I have the freedom to to date a guy and I'm a guy and you're like, as a matter of fact, no, because here we have clear outline texts that say you cannot do that. So, yes, we have scriptures that give clarity to that in terms of objective truths, and then we have scriptures that give clarity to the fact that there are subjective convictions that people can have in their relationship with God.

Speaker 2: 13:47

My father and this gets to the shame conversation my father, when he got saved and I think he was like 25 years old, he was an army sergeant and he got out of the army immediately. He stopped drinking. He was a drunkard, drank all the time. He stopped drinking Immediately. He stopped drinking. He was a drunkard, drank all the time. He stopped drinking. He stopped smoking. He loved cigars. He stopped everything. He was a fundamentalist Baptist guy that led him to the Lord and so he walked into that community and he, you know, I think maybe like 10 years later, when he was again like 35, he was out on a business trip and he was in his hotel room and he was lonely and he got a cigar and smoked it.

Speaker 2: 14:35

And my mom told me the story and she said she, he called me, he felt sick and, uh, morally, if he called me and said that he had a cigar, and he was like, was that wrong? I feel horrible, you know, about doing that. Uh, he felt ashamed, yeah, that because he had a conviction, um that had lasted, you know, and and he violated that conviction, um. So you know, yeah, we can have spirit-led personal convictions that become a standard in our life, that we can transgress and then feel ashamed about transgressing, and it's, it's. I have to be really careful, as a brother in Christ, to say to that person you should not feel ashamed, because the text actually says that to them it's a sin, right, right so they feel it.

Speaker 1: 15:43

The text supports that. The holy spirit is likely convicting you of that.

Speaker 2: 15:48

Yeah, yeah, I got to be really careful about that Now. That doesn't mean that over time I can't have a conversation with him, going back into the text and saying, man, do you, do you see? You know what I'm seeing in the text and I feel like it's not prohibiting alcohol. You know and and but again, that may not. It just may not be worthwhile having that conversation and it may be redundant and it just may make total sense that they keep that standard of morality for themselves. Plenty of Baptist preachers are teetotalers, not because they're holding some fine line. I used to get frustrated with the president of Southeastern Baptist Seminary, danny Akin, because he's such a legalist on this issue, but his dad was an abusive drunkard.

Speaker 1: 16:40

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:43

And so you're like I can't blame you for having that conviction and being ashamed if you were to trans, I can't blame you for that.

Speaker 1: 16:54

When you shared that about your dad and even this experience right here, immediately I thought of my dad and I think one of the questions that I had for you that I think will bring some clarity to this is can shame be debilitating for the Christian? And right, so there's this part of okay, you know you feel shame. Hopefully it brings you to repentance, if not, it might lead you to rebellion and hopefully you come back later. But there's this other piece too, in the middle where it debilitates Christians from being able to grow, and I thought immediately about my dad. So my dad, you know he was divorced and it happened twice to him and the first time he already felt a lot of shame and he communicated to us as his children I'm sorry, I messed up, I could have changed, I could have done. All these different things Happens a second time, even more levels of shame and part of that was kind of the conversation within the church was never divorce.

Speaker 1: 17:51

You know, you got to fight for your marriage and he felt that and I felt that even as a kid growing up, and he just every single time that we would meet afterwards he would say you know, I'm still sorry for you know what happened between me and your mom and you know, and how I was as a father and all these things, and every conversation was like that Jason, every single one. I'm like my dad's never going to grow if he doesn't let go of this shame. And we confirmed him in saying, dad, you know, there's nothing else you can do. You've asked us, you've apologized to us, We've forgiven you. You don't need to remind us of it, but he continued to live in that, and a big part of that was the teaching and also how he internalized that.

Speaker 1: 18:32

So it wasn't just I did something bad. Then it was I am bad, I'm a horrible father, I'm a horrible person, I'm a horrible Christian, all these things. So it was debilitating for him. So can you speak a little bit to that? For maybe Christians who live in shame yeah, and they address it as conviction, because that's how my dad said it. He said well, the Lord convicted me. I'm like Dad, you're living in shame.

Speaker 2: 18:56

Yeah, that's the crux of again, and I think we briefly touched on this in the last podcast. That's the crux of the controversy. The controversy among christians, yeah, right, is the debilitating, and of course, you use the, the technical term, which is the best. That's debilitating, um, the problem also with that term, though, is is that, um, shame can be rightly felt and debilitating at the same time, and the gospel is enabling, and people don't want to hear this, but a person that refuses to let their shame go oftentimes is a person that refuses to either understand or act upon the gospel. They refuse to take on something that's new and unfamiliar and risky, and the gospel is that to people that have been living in a debilitative state, and so a lot of this conversation, I think, is oriented in the wrong direction. They're like shame is the problem, shame is the. Well, I get what you're saying. That feeling, that feeling, I get it. I saw my dad, I saw you know, I felt I just I was afraid, I was proud, I don't want to lose my job, right, and so I hid my activities, and so they'll blame that on shame, but it's actually pride behind shame. Hmm, you don't want to be seen in the community as a person that you've as, as opposite of the person that you've been pretending to be, more that they understand you to be. It's pride that's actually keeping you where you're at, not necessarily this feeling of shame. I'm not saying that shame's not there and it's not at work, but I am saying that behind it is pride. Fear tends to be often behind shame, the foundation of shame. I am afraid of losing my family and so therefore, I am. I don't want to. I don't want anybody to find out in your father's situation. That's, that's he. You know you, everything's out right.

Speaker 2: 21:40

The conversation's been had, um, the truth has been communicated over and over again. The truth has been communicated over and over again. Guess what it's more comfortable for a person that has been living in this shameful place? Oftentimes that's more comfortable because it's familiar and they know what to expect and they've gotten used to the weight expect, and they've gotten used to the weight and sometimes they've even dead. They've been so deadened by the circumstances that they actually, lots of times, they don't actually feel the sham anymore, even though they they talk about it right out of out of you know, out of a sense of obligation to say something. Um, but the gospel, uh, which you and I know is, is empowering.

Speaker 2: 22:30

We were like, well, why don't you just accept the truth that you're actually released from that shame? Why don't you accept the truth that you're forgiven completely for your sins, that you're a new creation, that all things have passed away? All things would be, you know, everything's become new. Because that takes an enormous amount of faith to some people and it means stepping in a direction that's unfamiliar and untrustworthy. So no, I mean, I just think it's far more complex than simply saying shame's doing it to him. Man. How do we get over this debilitating shame? Well then, you better talk to me also about how do you get over debilitating fear, how do you get over debilitating pride and how do you get over the, the hardening of your heart that's taking place over the years?

Speaker 2: 23:20

yeah, oh yeah, that's good, brother, that's really good but yes, since they're debilitating, shame for sure, yeah, and but you, but it's, it's, it's just. There are other elements that are involved in that conversation, that are tied, the other emotions that are tied in into that, that have to be addressed. And if they're not addressed, you're just, you're, you're kind of just, you're making a little boogeyman and, and you know, shooing it away as if that's the only problem. And it's not the only problem, you know.

Speaker 1: 23:51

Yeah, yeah, and I do, for the audience, want to make a distinction here, because we will get to this in the third episode about theological versus trauma-informed shame. And there's the shame component where the messaging that you receive throughout your life through parents, through a religious leader, through family members, whoever the case is, these things are long-standing and you know, there is this emotional piece, there is this mental piece, there is this spiritual piece too, which needs to be addressed. And I think the factor here that we're discussing is when we use scripture and we either misunderstand it or misinterpret it and make that the driving force behind everything that we do. So, for example, to your point, my dad would take on this aspect of the passage of scripture where it says you know, we're nothing but unclean rags, right, right, you know we're nothing but unclean rags, right, right and basically so, using that which we understand theologically, what that references, what that means about our state before god there's nothing good in me.

Speaker 1: 24:59

Yeah, there's nothing good in me and all of these things, and so my dad would often use that passage and I've seen other christians use that as well as that we're nothing, we're nothing and therefore I'm nothing.

Speaker 1: 25:08

And they're just kind of stuck there and feel like they have nothing to contribute to the life of others, like my dad's very well-intended, he's a serviceful guy, he loves being there for people, but almost to the point where that's a way of kind of maybe covering that shameful part of himself in a sense's. It's hard to see it and he does it with us and we we've talked about this. So this is kind of just open talk, um, but I do see a lot of christians do that where they see that shameful, they only address themselves as this shameful piece and not so much as maybe also being sons of god or daughters of god and I almost hesitate sometimes in saying that, because in today's culture it's almost been glamorized like you are a child of god, you are special, you know so there's it's not untrue, but the way that it's been presented right both sides.

Speaker 1: 26:03

On one it can be very harsh and judgmental and on the other part it's too fluffy and maybe unrealistic in a sense.

Speaker 2: 26:11

Yeah, I think, gentlemen, like your dad, or people like your dad, many other people, my own self from time to time, have these thoughts right I can see the fruit of the broken, fleshly old man. I don't have to have that proved to me.

Speaker 1: 26:35

I have experienced it.

Speaker 2: 26:37

It is well established that I am a wretched human being. It's well established, right. I don't have to have somebody come and talk me into believing that I'm this horrible person.

Speaker 1: 26:54

And so in that sense, because you're asking yourself, right.

Speaker 2: 26:59

You're asking yourself well, why is it so hard for me to believe what the Word of God says about me in Christ Jesus versus what the Word of God says about me in Christ Jesus, versus what the Word of God says about me apart from Christ Jesus? Well, because I have felt the ease of what it is like to be me apart from Christ Jesus and I have carried that dead man with me into my relationship with Christ, where I'm said to be a new creation, and yet the shame of that dead carcass, and say that's me Versus saying that's no, and that's why I love that text. You know, it is no longer I who sin, but sin that is within me, right, the old man, the flesh. The text is clear that in Christ it's talking about this identity of ours as a dead other. And it's not me who I am in Christ, it's not the new creation, me who I am in Christ, it's not the new creation.

Speaker 2: 28:32

But all too often, because it's so easy to relate with the sinful fleshly desires and because they still come up in our thoughts and in our relationships, it's easy to slip back into identifying ourselves as that shameful person rather than saying I am being shameful, right, I am. I am doing something shameful right now, like that old man, like that old carcass. Uh, that relates. And paul paul uses this language, right, yeah, I'm confident that you guys you know, yeah, you're struggling with this, but I'm confident that you're new creations. So put it away, put it away, put that old flesh away. He uses that language, so I think.

Speaker 2: 29:21

But the reality of it is, and, of course, in the counseling industry and rightly so, and praise God for the good work that you guys do yes, there are some individuals that are so attached to that. It's Christians that are so attached to that old carcass, that old, dead person, and sometimes, of course, it has nothing to do with their actions, has everything to do with what was done to them, has everything to do with what was done to them, but they still attach themselves to that and it's so easy to relate to that that they don't believe in an effective way that they can walk in newness of life, because it's hard. It's actually hard to walk in newness of life and it takes a lot of sacrifice and it takes a lot of of fighting yourself and it takes a lot of putting that trash out of the house, or watching your mouth, or accountability, right it. It's hard and that's what I'm saying In some ways to say that I'm living with my shame and carrying with debilitating shame. In some ways, that's just the easiest thing to do, bro.

Speaker 1: 30:39

I definitely agree with that. I think there are a lot of Christians who are in that state of mind. I think one of the maybe verses that has been freeing for a lot of Christians that I've seen throughout the years has been Romans 8.1, where it talks about there's therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. Jesus and I think so can you elaborate a little bit on that? Why does Paul emphasize that no condemnation piece? Is it referring specifically to shame or guilt, or what is it referring to?

Speaker 2: 31:13

This is what I'm talking about. People have such a boogeyman of shame right that if I ever associate it with the Christian life, I'm somehow projecting somebody back into their old flesh, and that's simply not the way that the text uses shame right. It uses it as you are doing something that is outside of what is expected of you as a Christian and by your community in terms of character and you feel inherently as a Christian. You might actually feel more shame as a Christian than you ever did as a non-Christian. That's true, yeah, that's a good point, because you have this ever, should have this ever presence, holy spirit inside of you, convicting you, exposing you to yourself right in a mirror light right, yes, and, and, and it's a peter maybe

Speaker 2: 32:19

you're. You know, yes, the, the, the deeds of darkness are exposed to the light. Um, so, yeah, you're gonna feel shame. It's how you, but we're equipped to, as christians were equipped to deal with shame, with truth and the presence of the holy spirit and the community of christ. Does the community of christ often fail us in that matter? Yeah, as a matter of fact, they do. However, however, join the club. We fail people constantly as well, but we do have the presence of the Holy Spirit and we do have the Word of God that does show us. The condemnation is talking about the judicial condemnation. There is now no longer any judicial judgment sending me apart from God for my sin, to Hades, hell, whatever you want to say. We are now no longer judiciously separated from God. We are married to him. We are one with him. However, we're not completely without the old man yet.

Speaker 2: 33:36

And this is where shame comes in. We still have this old flesh, this old man. Yet and this is where shame comes in we still have this old flesh, this old man, with us and we still act upon it periodically and that is not who God intended us to be. And we, internally, are going to feel exposed and disconnected from ourselves at times and from our God at times and from our community at times. And how do we deal with that? As Christians? We repent, we have contrition, we go crap, lord, I did this thing again that I used to do and I feel horrible about it Again.

Speaker 2: 34:18

Some people would like to use that term guilt, and say, well, yeah, that's guilt, jason, and that's all we should ever feel, and that's just simply not consistent with the text and it is an eisegesis versus exegesis. You're just taking pop psychology in terms of the guilt dynamics and you're saying I like guilt better and so I'm going to use guilt as the way to address my bad feelings about being a certain way and doing the same thing I shouldn't do over and over again. I just feel guilty about it and I should repent, and that's the term I'm going to use. Well, oftentimes you're actually feeling shame and you should be feeling shame and you actually should have a contrite spirit, you should have contrition and fall on your face. I'm going to use this example because, again, recent sermon I heard, but it's a helpful narrative to address a lot of these things.

Speaker 2: 35:26

The woman comes in, a great sinner comes in and Jesus is in a Pharisee's house, simon the Pharisee and the woman begins to weep at his feet and wipes his feet with her hair, face down, wiping his feet with her hair, crying with tears that are washing his feet. We know she's a wretched sinner, uh, and we know that she came in to see jesus into a place that would normally not have her and that the people in that location no doubt kept their distance from her on the daily and judged her from afar and in many ways, okay, rightly so, in terms of she's living an ungodly life, she's violating the laws, she's, you know, because the text says she's a great sinner, right, but she is in the process of being contrite. One could read into the text that she has already felt the shame and in some ways is feeling the shame and can't look Jesus in the eyes. But she can weep at his feet in contrition and wash his feet with her tears and her hair. And then you have Simon. Doesn't say it out loud, he's not being improper in terms of what he says, but in his mind he says, man, if Jesus knew who was touching him, he would know she's a great sinner.

Speaker 2: 37:23

And Jesus, knowing his thoughts in front of everybody, said Simon, I have something to say to you. He didn't say anything out loud, he didn't talk to her, he didn't say anything. He says, simon, I've got something to say to you. And he says you know, simon, who is more appreciative of forgiveness? The person who's forgiven much, like my friend here, or a person that's not forgiven much? And Simon's like, I guess, the person that's forgiven much, right.

Speaker 2: 38:00

And so Jesus essentially shames him publicly. He says this woman who is full of sin is washing my feet, and you didn't even wash my feet when I walked in this house. She is, she is blessing me beyond what you can fathom, bro, but you didn't do anything for me when I walked into your house. The basic hospitality that our culture demands because of the honor shame dynamics, you didn't offer to me. You didn't give me anything to drink, you didn't, you didn't wash my feet, uh, you didn't offer to me. You didn't give me anything to drink, you didn't wash my feet, you didn't give me oil for my hair. You didn't do any of that, but she hasn't stopped doing it since she came in.

Speaker 2: 38:49

He shames Jesus, shames Simon, and because this woman has a contrite heart, she is completely forgiven of her sin. That's what the text says about shame and contrition and repentance. And who should feel shame and carry it? The person that doesn't think they need it. They need it in many ways. The one that is feeling it and is responding with contrition with it to it. That person is going to receive the forgiveness of Christ and feel that forgiveness and own it. Yeah Right, there's Simon. Didn't. Didn't seem like a guy that was owning it, yeah.

Speaker 1: 39:44

Yeah, no, that's powerful, brother. There's this um, as you're sharing that. There's this concept in the attachment literature that talks about God image versus God concept. And God image is the experience that we have with Christ, the experiences that we have with him through people, through the church and so on. And God concept is what we think about God, right, how we know him, what we've been taught about him and so on.

Speaker 1: 40:08

And I think this aspect of shame that we're talking about within the church, we're taught certain things about God, how God does these things in these different settings, this example that you just gave with Jesus and Simon Peter.

Speaker 1: 40:22

So we have these examples, right, so we see it and we understand it, but it's not until we experience it that it does something to us. Kind of like the woman in the example you just used in that story, where she experienced Jesus in a different level because she knew how unworthy she was. And she experienced Jesus in a different level because she knew how unworthy she was and she experienced Jesus in a different way. So that would be an example of that God image, which we'll get into in our next topic. But, yeah, I think this aspect of God uses the church, uses people in our lives family members and so on to communicate what we need in different moments of our lives. And it could be grace, it could be truth, it could be anything, but he uses people in our lives to bring us to that point, and sometimes that does include shame and sometimes it includes grace.

Speaker 2: 41:12

So, yeah, I think before closing out is yeah, I would just say conviction is a big part of that right. The church is a partner in what things should be addressed with conviction and what things shouldn't be, what things should be seen as shameful and what things shouldn't be seen as shameful, and how a person should respond when they feel guilty or ashamed or convicted, or how they shouldn't respond. The church has an enormous role and, yeah, the church messes that up a good many times, but that doesn't devalue what God wants to do through the body of Christ and often does through the body of Christ.

Speaker 1: 41:59

Correct, yeah that's a great point. Yeah, so, as we kind of tease this out a bit, is there anything that we missed, anything that you would like to kind of add before we move into the next episode?

Speaker 2: 42:12

No, I don't think this one again was supposed to be about guilt and shame and conviction. I think we covered it pretty well just in terms of. I just want people to really understand that guilt and shame often are addressing a lot of the same things and conviction and conviction and I know that's why you addressed these three, because we do oftentimes use them synonymously and I'm telling you, the text deals far more with shame and images. Shame and how it's addressed and how it's pictured in people's lives, far more than the feeling of guilt that current psychological tradition would want to use. That's, that's just more of a modern concept.

Speaker 2: 43:09

Yeah, whereas shame has thousands of years, the feeling of shame as thousands of years of being addressed and being talked about and philosophized about and used and seen and observed and honed, whereas guilt and there are a lot of people that are trying to replace shame with guilt and you can't do it yeah, they're not the same thing and guilt does not. Guilt does have a biblical reference point, but it's not what they think it is. It's this judicial standing, uh, it's this status. What am I before the community, before god, in terms of my current status, and am I innocent of this and am I guilty or whatever the case is? That's a takeaway.

Speaker 1: 44:00

Yeah, absolutely. One of the takeaways also I think that is good for us to have is you emphasize a lot, maybe this new perspective on shame is that shame is not bad, that it can be something that we can look at it from a different perspective, where sheds light on areas of our lives that need to be addressed in a sense. Yeah, would that be accurate?

Speaker 2: 44:27

no, totally, and you know, I I think I said this in another podcast podcast, I don't, I don't think it was you and Tim but I said we should be more focused on the feeling of shame and less focused on shaming people. That's good, right. So, yeah, we should help people and ourselves go, because God is, as he works within us, is in the business of exposing, yeah, and we are going to feel shame and we should feel that shame, but oftentimes it's the work of God inside of us and not necessarily our job to go around and shame, attack everybody. Correct, right. So is it appropriate? Are there appropriate ways? Sure To ways, sure To shame? Yes, um, do we need to be more delicate about that and sensitive? Yes, um, but the feeling of shame it's huge and and, uh, I think we're. You know, we'll get into the appropriateness of certain feelings of shame in this next session.

Speaker 1: 45:38

Absolutely. I see two great topics down. All right, brother, we'll see you at the next one.