God Attachment Healing
Hi everyone! Welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Sam Landa. This podcast is dedicated to Christians who want to understand why they relate to God in the way they do. I explore how our early childhood relationship with our parents--specifically with how they met or did not meet our needs--influences how we relate to ourselves, the church, and to God. Because much of the pains and struggles of life are intertwined in these three areas, I discuss with my guests how we can find healing from the pain, confusion, doubt, and anger experienced in these relationships. If you're interested in learning more about your attachment style and how to heal from the pain you’ve experienced in the relationships mentioned above, then this podcast is for you. Welcome to the show! I'm happy you're here!
God Attachment Healing
Finding God Through Mental Health Struggles w/ Dr. Lisa Stanton
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Dr. Lisa Stanton's journey from the depths of addiction to spiritual transformation offers a powerful testimony to God's ability to heal even our most broken parts. A social psychologist with expertise in behavior change, Dr. Stanton's professional knowledge couldn't save her from her own destructive patterns – she spent fifteen years cycling through anorexia, bulimia, and alcoholism while maintaining a façade of success.
Growing up caught between her atheist mother and Christian father, Lisa drifted toward atheism in her teens and embraced biological determinism in graduate school, convinced life was meaningless. Despite outward achievements, she was drinking to blackout regularly, struggling with severe eating disorders, and eventually spiraling into isolation during COVID, drinking box wine alone in her apartment while questioning if life had any purpose at all.
The turning point came in January 2021 when, after failed attempts at recovery through new age spirituality, she surrendered to God on her knees in a church. That moment became her sobriety date – one she's maintained for over four years. But what makes her story extraordinary isn't just getting sober; it's how her relationship with God has healed the underlying spiritual wounds that therapy alone couldn't touch.
Dr. Stanton speaks candidly about the limitations of both purely religious and purely psychological approaches to mental health. While some churches stigmatize counseling, many therapists miss the spiritual dimensions of healing, particularly around forgiveness and personal responsibility. Her experience suggests that true transformation requires both spiritual surrender and honest self-examination – a daily practice of pausing to identify resentments, control issues, and selfish motivations before they manifest as anxiety, depression, or relapse triggers.
Her book "52 Life-Changing Lessons I Learned in Recovery" explores these principles further, offering wisdom for anyone struggling with addiction, mental health challenges, or simply seeking a more authentic relationship with God. If you're battling your own demons or know someone who is, this episode provides both practical insights and profound hope that healing is possible at any depth of darkness.
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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. So excited to have you guys here today. As you guys have seen in the last couple of weeks, just kind of doing a lot of interviews and meeting new people, hearing about their stories, about how they have found God attached to God, have experienced different types of church hurt, found God attached to God, have experienced different types of church hurt. And today, taking a little bit even deeper approach, as we learn about Dr Lisa Stanton's story and her relationship with God and where she was. So the topic for today is God attachment, mental health and atheism. So we're going to try to cover all those topics as much as possible and I just want to thank you for tuning in as always. Please subscribe, share this episode with your friends and thank you again for supporting the podcast. And now we will jump to Dr Lisa Stanton.
Speaker 1:Lisa, I know you mentioned in our email exchange to call you Lisa, and I started thinking about this because this was instilled in me as a child that with anyone who has received a degree, you refer to them as Dr Lisa Stanson or Dr, whatever their name would be right. So I went into college, went into my master's program and once I graduated, all my professors said you can call me by my first name now. And I said no, I can't. You don't understand. I will never be able to make that transition. So in our interview today, most likely I'll call you Dr Lisa Stanton, if I get comfortable. You probably got me down to Lisa, so we'll be good.
Speaker 2:Beautiful. So it's a measure of how comfortable I make you, whether you've transitioned.
Speaker 1:I'm guessing that's what it is. I'm guessing that's what it is, but maybe it's just saying the whole thing. Maybe I'll go to Dr Lisa. That might short it up a little bit.
Speaker 2:I have some friends who call me that just like as a joke, sort of Like I'll come to dinner, and they're like oh, dr Lisa's here.
Speaker 1:I'm like hi guys, thank you Right right, right, so I'm looking forward to it as well. I'm working on my dissertation right now, hopefully be done by the end of summer and yeah, I mean it's kind of the same joke, so we'll see how that goes. But again, just thank you so much for being here. And yeah, if you could just share a little bit with the audience about who you are, what you do and you know, anything interesting that you'd like to share about yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I'm Lisa or Dr Lisa Stanton and just to like current day, today I live about 20 minutes west of Minneapolis with my husband on 10 acres, so we're like out of the city these days. We kind of went like city suburbs and now we're like I don't think we're going to go further than this, but but out in the country a little bit. So going back, though, I guess, like as far as education wise, I am from Pennsylvania. I went to college in Virginia and then got a PhD from University of Minnesota in social psychology. University of Minnesota, in social psychology, area of expertise is weight change, so behavior change, especially body weight and sort of associated chronic diseases.
Speaker 2:I then did a two year postdoctoral fellowship at Northwestern School of Medicine, which is in downtown Chicago. The campuses in Evanston, like the main stuff, but the medical school is downtown. So I was downtown Chicago working on projects related to behavioral cancer prevention and control. So essentially, if you think of like breast cancer, ovarian cancer, mostly they actually have like a 40% risk of like. The risk isn't biological, 40% of it is behavioral stuff. So I was looking at basically studies on helping those people do behavior change, stuff that leads them to keep their cancer in remission. So mostly secondary prevention is what we call that.
Speaker 2:And then from there I spent a couple years at a tech company doing similar things with diabetes and then spent two years full time writing my book that just came out and doing a lot of stuff. That is like much more in this like God direction, because I had a big conversion that will come back to in the middle of that and then, right before we got on here, I was telling you most recently God has called me back to the clinical research space and I don't know why yet, but I know that I'm here. So I'm back working as a clinical researcher in the diabetes space again. But it's cool because it's still like helping people.
Speaker 2:And it's so interesting because I now see so much more of the behaviors that like of these people that now it's my like professional job to work with and it's not my professional job to diagnose their spiritual maladies. But just because of my own struggles I like know how much of it is related to spiritual stuff. So it's a really interesting to look at. And not not every single person, but like most people. If you've over into the point that you have type two diabetes, you usually struggle with some type of eating disorder, some type of binge eating thing, and a lot of those really are more spiritual in nature off the record. Those are more spiritual in nature on the record. That's not what I study when I'm at work, but it's just interesting to see where these worlds are sort of colliding for me these days.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I'm curious is there a personal connection to the field of diabetes? You know, when you mentioned that I know a number of people who have it, so I was thinking about what that connection was for you.
Speaker 2:I think it came out of just. I think the original personal connection was I don't remember how much I got into it in the like version of my story I posted on Instagram. But eating disorders are a huge part of my story and it was originally anorexia but then eventually binge eating disorder and then that transition to bulimia, which is essentially just binge eating disorder. You throw it up afterward and so I feel oddly connected to people who end up with type two diabetes, because I think a lot of them are suffering from those similar things or at least headed toward those similar things. You know it's on a spectrum, so at different levels, but like overeating and not knowing why, right, and then I was just throwing up afterwards. So people notice more that something was wrong, but a lot of people are overeating and not knowing why and not getting to those clinical levels of diagnoses, but then like ending up, let's say, with a type two diabetes diagnoses out of that.
Speaker 2:So I think I there was a little personal connection with that. And then my little brother is only five, I know exactly how old he is, november 19, 1999. But he, he also um, has pretty like severe unmanaged type 2 diabetes and he suffers from a bunch of other mental health stuff that makes it really hard for him to manage um, so kind of a variety of connections to the diabetes space yeah, yeah, there's a lot of layers there, um, that, yeah, that just kind of overlap with with each other.
Speaker 1:there's a lot of layers there that just kind of overlap with each other. There's the belief, there's the medical piece and there's the mental health piece, right, and that's essentially what we'll be talking about today, kind of this whole layered belief system of how one thing can affect another thing. You know, one of the things that one of the reasons why I started this podcast was that there was people who started to deconstruct, and a big part of that had to do with their experiences within the church.
Speaker 1:And one of the things that comes up oftentimes in church, at least for me growing up, was this negative view of going to counseling. Right, the stigma attached to going to counseling for whatever reason. Right, if you're depressed, you know the word of God should be enough. Why are you going to counseling for whatever reason? Right, if you're depressed, you know the word of God should be enough. Why are you going to counseling Anxiety and so on? And I'm assuming it was the same thing, probably around eating disorders and other types of mental health issues. So a lot of people didn't feel like they could. They felt distant from God or like they were doing something wrong for going to seek mental health services. And I'm curious for you did you grow up in the church? And if you did, was that kind of the messaging that you heard, or was it different?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting. I grew up very confused, I think is the only way to explain it. So my parents got divorced when I was four my mom listens to every podcast and she always corrects me because I have it wrong but it's somewhere between three and five they got divorced. And so my mom doesn't believe in God. Even didn't then, doesn't now, and my dad has had a lot of changes over time.
Speaker 2:So when I was really little he was Christian and we went to Christian churches but jumped around a lot. We were Episcopalian, I think, when I was really young and then we went to some other things for a while and then were Presbyterian when I was older. So mostly just various Protestant denominations. But I mostly was just confused, I think more than anything because we kept switching and I didn't really know why. And then my mom, of course, doesn't believe in God. So then, like the adults in my life are not agreeing on things, so I don't really think that I could tell you about any specific like. I don't even know if I really had a negative perception of God when I was little. It was just like I remember believing in God when I was really little and then by the time I was 11 or so, I just sort of was like dumb people believe in God, like this is stupid. I don't know why anyone's doing this, so I don't know that I ever ended up like having to absorb any stigmas because I just didn't, which is so ironic that I was about to be like I just didn't respect anyone with faith. So why would I respect their opinion? But like, so ironic that I was about to be like I just didn't respect anyone with faith, so why would I respect their opinion? Um, but like, that's pretty much, which is so ironic given where I am now, of course. But, um, but that's, I think, what? Where I went with it? Um, but then I kind of.
Speaker 2:The second part of that question was like about counseling Um, I think both then and now. So then, um, I went to bajillions of counselors all the time because no one had any negative perception of them at all. But I think, in some ways, not having thinking that that was a panacea is problematic on the other side, right. So there's the like don't go at all, you should just read your Bible and figure it out, which, of course, is not particularly effective. But then there's also the like there is nothing for you in the Bible. Just go to more psychology and that will help you. And that's also not really very effective in the end. And obviously, like, in the end, I've fallen somewhere in the middle of that, which is that like it takes a really I don't.
Speaker 2:I guess part of me now sometimes online people are like she doesn't like psychology and she's a psychologist, um, but I think there's there's places where the wrong psychologist can take people really in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think a lot of stuff for me with that happens, especially like when I think about my mental health struggles whether it's eating disorders, addiction, depression, anxiety that like one of the biggest places where, like I think, spiritual directors and psychologists sometimes disagree is around forgiveness, and I think that's a pretty big and important argument where so, so a good at least in my experience, like a good.
Speaker 2:Actually, right before we popped on this, I was responding to someone who was writing to me about something about forgiveness and their therapist they were like my therapist told me that I should forgive but never forget, and it was in response to a video that I had posted, basically about like despair coming from unforgiveness.
Speaker 2:From unforgiveness, yeah, um, and so I think with it, of course, like, like I'm saying good spiritual director, because, as we know, there's a lot of like religious teachers who aren't good, um, but like, but like a good spiritual director not someone who's trying to like scare you or shame you or whatever um like, will, um like softly, I guess. Um, I don't even know if I'm always soft, so maybe I'm not always a good spiritual director but will softly push you toward realizing that unconditional forgiveness is actually the way of healing. And I think a lot of times therapists are looking to provide you, you, relief from shame and sometimes leave us with anger in trying to like relieve the shame first, or like prioritizing relief of the shame over relief of the unforgiveness. Sometimes in therapy they'll say, like it's not your fault at all, like don't worry about it, like you're allowed to be mad at them. Those are all normal emotions, right, because they're trying to like relieve any shame the person has, but in doing so sometimes the healing of forgiveness can get lost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's a great point. When you brought up that discrepancy between how Christian counselors or directors spiritual directors might view forgiveness and those in secular settings spiritual directors my view forgiveness and those in secular settings I mean immediately. The thing that I thought of was that justification or that release of what role did I play in this. There's usually shame around that, like I can't accept the thing that I was responsible for and they think that if you do accept that because I feel bad, then it must be bad. But no, that's the whole part of, as you're mentioning, the healing process to feel that and then to process that and work through that. Um, but yeah, there is definitely this, this area of forgiveness that there is a a marked difference between how christians may understand that and how non-christians may see that and we have a gospel.
Speaker 1:So that kind of informs the way that we forgive this as well.
Speaker 2:So yeah the factor there I have one other thing that I thought of when you were saying. That, too is just um, like I just really want to like put a pin in that thing that you just said, because I was more talking about forgiveness, but you brought up a really great point. Another big difference is like responsibility, that a lot of times, therapists are trying to help you feel better and sometimes, like, are diagnosing others rather than you in some ways, like I think I see a lot of like people going to therapy and then, like realizing that someone else is a narcissist or someone else hurt them in this way or they shouldn't be in this type of thing, and there's sometimes less again, not all therapists, but sometimes less of a focus on like well, what did I do? That put me?
Speaker 1:in a relationship. Let's say he is a narcissist.
Speaker 2:What did I do? Or what is true attachment right? What is in me that led me to decide that I wanted to be the other half of that relationship? And I think a lot of times, like, like, a good spiritual director is better at being like. Their sin is their sin. Let's figure out yours, like. Let's look at where your patterns are. Leave their patterns to them. Let's look at where your patterns are to see why you ended up here.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, it seems that the focus of counseling has been to make you feel better. Yes, yes, it seems that the focus of counseling has been to make you feel better, not necessarily to heal, and healing is is it's. It's a term that is ongoing, right, because do you really ever heal? And and I'm curious to hear what you think about that as we have our discussion it's that healing is a process. It's ongoing, but are there ways in which you cope that are a lot better than you did before? And maybe that's part of it too. But I know part of your story, lisa comfortable now part of your story was about dealing with this, the mental health struggles growing up, and, yeah, tell us a little bit about that. Like, what were the mental health issues? Maybe that was really pressing on you, because it sounds like it happened pretty early in life.
Speaker 1:And that's hard for a teenager, adolescent, even young adult to navigate without guidance or without those strong attachment figures in your life. So what was that like for you, um, struggling with that?
Speaker 2:yeah it was. It was a lot and it was early and it was not always um Like well, I didn't really understand what was going on for a really long time. So like long before even, like I would say, addiction comes in kind of like 14 plus, and then becomes the star of the show, at least to the people around me who are now worried about me. But prior to that, starting really young, I didn't even honestly think of this as a thing until years later I was in a psychology class and I was like, oh my gosh, that was a phobia. When I was in a psychology class and I was like, oh my gosh, that was a phobia.
Speaker 2:When I was in starting in preschool, I had a sticker phobia and like that may sound like oh, that's cute and funny, but it was like my teachers knew not to put them around me. If there was a paid thank you sticker, like in the nineties, on the milk, I like could not put milk on my cereal that week, like I was terror of stickers, like if there was one on the ground around me, I would have to walk around it.
Speaker 2:My stepsister loved them and put them on her bed and I would get like nauseous just going into her room because there was like stickers on her bed. So it was like off right, it's not just like, it's like something, something is wrong. And the way that I view that now is it's one of the earliest signs of just like other things were wrong. But this is where my brain went to just like this is the problem, stickers are the problem, nothing else is the problem. And then basically, the sticker phobia kind of went away. I honestly still don't love them today.
Speaker 2:Like if you were like would you rather more or fewer stickers in your life? Fewer is the answer, but but I'm not like like I can like have an apple with a sticker on it and take the sticker off and proceed to eat the apple, which was like not possible when I was a child, um, but it evolved from that to ocd with like light switches, um, or just like weird tapping things and like that was the, that was the compulsion and the obsession was that my mom was going to die, which had to do with some other, like trauma and deaths, especially of mothers. That was happening in my life around that time. So I like truly believe that if I didn't flick this light switch enough times like I, my mother was at risk of dying as a result of that Um, and then, in combination with that um, I had separation anxiety disorder, which is this thing where you have basically like nightmares that an attachment figure is going to die when you're separated from them. Um, which also was my mom, and how old?
Speaker 2:were you during that time. This was like around like eight to 11 or 12.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And what had happened around that time when I was in fifth grade, which I think is like 10. So prior to that, like a girl whose mom we were going to adopt, this girl whose mom had cancer and then her mom passed away. So like that mom died. And then, um, my like mom, my now stepdad's ex wife Um, so they were already divorced by this time, but she died like right around the same time. And then when I was in fifth grade, the mom of one of my classmates was obviously having mental health issues and um murdered him and committed suicide. So moms were just like behaving in confusing ways is probably the best way to explain it. Yeah, I think that's why, like that started to develop um. And then basically, I think like those things kind of petered out and I don't really remember anything like mostly just anxiety after that, when I was like 11 to 13.
Speaker 2:And then freshman year into sophomore year of high school, kind of simultaneously, I started drinking a lot. Like from the day I started drinking I was like blackout, drinking a lot all the time. Like I was drinking at school with older kids. I started dating a senior in high school who had access to alcohol, so it happened pretty quickly and then simultaneously the eating disorder started. So those got really bad or like started the summer after freshman year of high school. So between July of that year in December of that year I went from 115 pounds I was already skinny like 88.
Speaker 2:Wow, yeah so it just went to like and then obviously that's when like alarm bells started sounding because I looked like a skeleton, and so then I like that's when kind of therapy started for that and I had been on and off in therapy for all those other things.
Speaker 2:but I would just kind of say it was okay, because therapy when you're eight is scary uh yeah, and so it was more just like I don't know, so that that whole like ocean of OCD and the sticker phobia kind of went away when, like, from that time on, my like thought life was obsessed by food and alcohol yeah like one or the other or both at any given time and I know you would kind of ask.
Speaker 2:Like day to day it sort of switched between whether the problem was anorexia, whether the problem was bulimia, whether the problem was alcohol and drugs. But I feel like, honestly, from 14 to 29, it was like one of those most of the time and I, like I did well, like I played a lot of sports, I got mostly all A's in school, so like those things were happening. But like whatever my brain was not like actively involved in doing one of those things, I was either like obsessing about my weight or drunk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and see that. And that was the interesting thing that caught my attention was that I don't know if it was a red or a slide in one of your videos, but it was this idea of being very still like a stellar student and still doing athletic stuff and so on, and even your accomplishments. Afterwards it sounded like you were functioning well on a day to day that almost no one would have noticed in a sense. But yeah, who was noticing Like? Who was the one that was telling, hey, you need to stop that. Was there anyone?
Speaker 2:Yeah, very few people, which is interesting. Like my mom Sorry, my phone started ringing because my brother's allowed to ring through when it's on, do not disturb um. So my mom noticed especially. I feel like she noticed a lot um around like the anorexia stuff. And then I had like a friend in high school who noticed, who kind of tried to stage her own little intervention. She left and went to boarding school and basically told me like I'm not going to stay here and watch you die, because she really knew how much I was drinking and how weird I was about at that point. Um, but like, mostly my parents didn't know. It's actually been really interesting.
Speaker 2:I just gave my dad and my step-mom um copies of my book and they have been sort of like less involved in a lot of my recovery stuff. My mom, um, even though she doesn't believe in God, is actually my editor and reads everything that I write, so she like knows the stories. So she's had time to process it. But I thought I was giving my dad and my stepmom this like gift of like oh look, my book came out, you guys should read it. But the book starts with a memoir and they both actually emailed me since I gave it to them and we're'm so sorry. Like I didn't know, wow. And I was like I'm so sorry I did not consider warning.
Speaker 2:That's what was in the book. I like it was not meant to be like uh, you know what? I mean, it wasn't meant to make them feel bad about their parenting or anything that happened. I was like what came out and then they were like, oh my god, I didn't know, this is what you were going through, um, and then so no one for a while in some ways. But like the people who are around me in performance settings, I feel like knew, like some coaches kind of knew that things were happening and then what really started to happen is anyone I ever dated basically broke up with me because of alcohol or talked to me about it or gave me ultimatum? Yeah, so I would say in the end it was mostly like boyfriends, but they're so easy to get new ones. Like kind of a funny way, but kind of serious way is that like as soon as someone breaks up with you because of that, you just convince yourself that they didn't understand you and like it's fun?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that was the mentality about it. Is that you don't understand why I'm going through this or why I'm having this. This is my way to maybe self-soothe in a way, um, or decompress from everything. Or yeah, what was? Is that how it was seen? Kind of like this I love this more than I love you, so it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 2:Or like what was the thought process I feel like they saw it as like this girl's got like problems with alcohol and I feel like the alcohol was kind of the thing that kept coming up because you can't really break up with someone for being anorexic. I mean you can, but it like feels worse if you're the guy to be like break up with you over your eating disorder. But like alcoholism was like easier to talk to me about, maybe, than like hey, why don't you ever eat foods? Um, so I feel like it was more this conversation where they'd be like is there anything I can do to help you? Like why do you black out all the time? It's really hard to date you when you're like because I mean I would black out and wake up somewhere else, right. So not like cheating on them blacked out, but not because I wanted to cheat on them, just because I blacked out and didn't know where I ended up.
Speaker 2:Always, just I'm like I don't know why I drink that much, I don't want to drink that much, like maybe it's because I don't eat and then I drink, right. So then I'm like blaming the eating disorder in it or blaming social anxiety. So it was always like I genuinely didn't think that I had a problem with alcohol. I thought I had a lot of other problems and then just couldn't figure out why I blacked out all the time. Um so I think I didn't really know, but it kind of led to these like cycles. I mean, we're also all so young for the most part. I actually dated an older guy when I was in my mid twenties and he was the first person who was like you're an alcoholic and I was like you're just in your forties. Didn't really understand. I just thought he was old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's, that's um. Yeah, it's wild. So from 14 to 29, that was kind of like the life and um, and for you it felt like, well, it's just, I'm not being understood for what I'm going through, what I'm experiencing. So I'm curious. So at 29, what, what shifted? Because I think, from what you mentioned leading up to 29, there's still no belief in God. Is that right? No strong, so so living that life. So what changed?
Speaker 2:deterministic. I had a professor in graduate school who was like a biological determinism guy and I went from sort of like I'm not really sure to like life is biological, like determinism, like doesn't matter what decision I make, it's all biological. In the Big Bang it was determined like what I'm gonna eat for lunch today. Like I went that far into just like life is dust, doesn't matter. And then over time it's so funny, funny, I how like dependent things were on who I was dating, or looking up to right. So this professor and then I dated a guy in my like mid 20s to late 20s who maybe was setting me up for the eventual conversion, but he was really new age spiritual at least put me in this place of like starting to believe that there was something other than the things that I was experiencing. Um, happening, I guess, would probably be the best way to explain that. Um, he was high all the time, which I think like led to some of the like this is what I'm over here,
Speaker 2:um, but he also was pretty nice about my drinking because he was high all the time, so that's why that boyfriend lasted so long.
Speaker 2:But so I think like during my later 20s I became a little bit more open to like universe stuff and then, unfortunately, that led to like a lot of getting really led astray into like psychics and crystals and all sorts of things that I've actually had to like pray about being released from now, but at least in a weird way, like it was an interesting part of the path, because I think it would have been really hard to jump from like determinism to Christianity.
Speaker 2:But because these like small doors were already opened by these other things I like did strongly believe in, like, um, oh gosh, what is that? Like the secret or like manifestation, or like these other things like existing, um, that are all just like completely self-centered versions of spirituality. Now I've come to understand I didn't know that then and at least they were opening the door toward things. So that was like my mid to late 20s and then I hit rock bottom, drinking wise, and it's so funny because like nothing happened, people are like what is rock bottom? And I'm like I don't know the day that I woke up and was like you are.
Speaker 2:It's stupid to be alive right that moment yeah, um, and it was like several months of spiraling and I'd gotten to a point where it was very clear that my drinking was not just over partying anymore. I was like several months of spiraling and I'd gotten to a point where it was very clear that my drinking was not just over partying anymore. I was like drinking box wine 24 hours a day in my studio apartment by myself during COVID.
Speaker 2:So no, sure that didn't help there's no like excuse that of anything anymore. Right, I'm just doing this to myself alone, um, and eventually just got to a point where I think I was just like I don't, like I don't even understand the point of life, like what is even the point of living, what's even the point of sobering up, what's even the point of anything. But I think that at least allowed me to realize like I'm spiraling and I need help, like if I think there's not even a point of being alive anymore than like something, then I need to do something. And I feel like that something was just like I somehow need to not be drunk all the time anymore. Um, and so that propelled me into asking for help, like with that um which sent me into people recommending recovery meetings. And then it was when I got my butt planted in recovery meetings that people said you need a higher power. And I was like I got one. It's universe, everything's fine.
Speaker 2:And then my life got worse and worse and worse, because now I'm not drinking and I don't have a relationship with God. I have a relationship with nothing. I've made up a God and which is really just yourself. If you make up who God is and make it your own. You're actually just worshiping yourself and things get worse, which is what happened.
Speaker 2:So things spiraled more for six months while I sat in that, and then it was January of 2021, about 20 days before my 30th birthday that I finally surrendered to, like, got brought to a church there's a whole story there but ended up in a church on my knees, like looking at a cross. It was like, fine, whatever, like I'll try it. Um, and then that's where the whole story sort of shifts is, beginning from january 4th 2021, which I did not know that day was going to be my sobriety date. But that is so. Those whole six months where I'm trying to do the universe and all this other stuff, I also like kept relapsing not again on alcohol, but I was like cocaine and mushrooms and like LSD, because I need to have a spiritual experience and like just spiraling in that sense and like just spiraling in that sense. So January 4th was when I got on my knees in the church and was like okay, like if you're real, do something. And then one day at a time that has remained my sobriety date for more than four years now.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean that's amazing. It's great to be able to reach that point. I'm sure it was a huge relief afterwards. And then, obviously, the recovery process is is another stage in and of itself. But I you know as a as the listeners are hearing this one of the things that I keep thinking about, lisa, as you were sharing, is just how much, how far deep, it can go into into these addictions. Deep it can go into these addictions. And if you're watching all of this, from that 14 to 29 years of age that you were experiencing, anyone from the outside is like there's no hope for that person.
Speaker 1:They're just going to be like this for the rest of their lives. So to hear from you sharing all of that and then getting to the point where I don't even know what this is, I'm just going to give it a try and see what happens, and gosh, it just speaks to the power of God in those very deep, dark moments. And I can't even imagine what your nights were when you had to process everything that had happened in the last 15 years prior to that. Can you give us a glimpse of what those nights were like for you? I feel like people most often reflect on their change at night, but I don't know what was that like for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, even as you were talking, it was making me think that I think one of the coolest things about a relationship with God that I've like come to I don't know have developed whatever over the last four years, um, is that, like yes, I've been sober since that day. Like great, I have not used mind altering chemicals other than like Advil and coffee since that day, um, however, I think what's almost cooler which sounds crazy to be like you were drunk 24 hours a day and now you're not like that's pretty darn cool. That says a lot about God. However, I think what's cooler than that is like all of the other changes, and those changes might actually be more relevant to the average listener who, like may not be drinking themselves to death right now, but just like is still having like anxiety from day to day, is still like wondering the purpose in life, is still like worried what other people are thinking about them, is still worried about the health of their friends and family, is still like wanting certain goals or certain things and like how do I manage like my goals and like my expectations and my purpose, and like all of those things have like begun to sort themselves out over the last four years also, and like those things are are a lot of the reason why I was drinking right in a bunch of anger to watch those things sort themselves out.
Speaker 2:But to go back to like what it's like when you first start processing those things, like for me, the first couple of years really of sobriety was like these highs where I'm like I'm forgiving people and God's helping me and this is the coolest thing ever and I can't believe I don't hate this person anymore and they don't pop into my head and this is amazing.
Speaker 2:And then just like being exhausted and wondering if I'm depressed again and like just like. I feel like the highs and lows of that because there's so much being processed and like so many little mini awakenings happening that it's like it's almost like you get a mini awakening and then it all needs to like, process through and like. So it just was a mix of like. I don't think that I ever felt. That's actually not true. I was gonna say I don't think I ever felt like deep despair, but there was a couple times, especially like they'll have a menstrual cycle, man, and there are like certain types of the month, especially times in the month, like the hormones and like the healing cycle hit just right and I would go back to being like this guy, even real, like why is this happening? And then, like two days later, I'm like okay, I like get it and I'm like feeling better about this thing.
Speaker 2:Um, but it was not linear like it's, not like it's not very forth and then everything has been like everything has actually been uphill since then, but that like hill looked much more like that than just like climbing straight up. Um, because I fought back about a lot of things. Like there, there's been certain times in my recovery, in my relationship with God, like if we just go all the way full circle to talk to me about forgiveness, in the beginning, january 5th, I did not believe. Right, it's been one day I'm a Christian. One day I did not believe in unconditional forgiveness. I did not think that I needed to forgive everyone who harmed me. I didn't think they deserved it. I was glad that hell existed and they were probably going there. Like that is not the type of person that I am today, but that's the thing is that there's like salvation, great. Now I like believed in Jesus, but then there's just like I think, till I die, right, there will be more and more notification of these, like layers being revealed to me of places, and on January 5th 2021, like now, they're like a little bit more subtle.
Speaker 2:I think that things God's working on they were harsh things God was working on. I mean, I had I don't even really talk about this in podcasts, that much. But like I had just, like the summer before, gotten into seeking arrangements, which is essentially this like prostitution website, and I was like not even totally convinced that I needed to give that up on January 5. So, like my sanctification journey has been long to to be like jesus, I believe in you, and then, on january 5th, be like you're sure I can't trade money for sex, and they're like, no, you really can't do that anymore. That's not the thing.
Speaker 2:So, like, no matter where you are in that journey, like that to the point where today I'm like I'm really trying to like stop swearing. Or like stop. Like like lying's gone but like little ways that I lie to myself. Or like into controlling of my husband, or like am I in slots when I'm not picking up after myself? Like that's where I live today. But day one was not like that right. Day one was like big, chunky sins that I was still very much in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I'm really glad that you mentioned that, because I think from those who grew up in the church it's hard for us to see that, or it's kind of like the story that we always wanted, right, the idea of seeing someone in the deepest, darkest pit of their life.
Speaker 1:Jesus comes in, saves the day. And now they have this. You know this uphill, like everything's uphill after that, because how much farther can you go when you've been to the deepest, darkest, darkest pit? So for those who grew up in the church, they often think to themselves they see their testimony is something like it's not as uh, dramatic or spectacular as someone else who was saved from that place where you were at. So they don't often appreciate their own growth, which is slow. But also there's these very deep falls in their Christian walks, kind of like a David moment, right, someone who sought after God but then had these really horrific sins and then you know, obviously he gets reestablished by God.
Speaker 1:So I think those who grew up in the church see that story and think that it's only a pill. So when you share that, no, there was still some things they had to wrestle with, but at least it was still going up, that relationship was growing with God. So I appreciate you sharing that, because I do know that a lot of Christians who grew up in the church want to have a type of testimony, that kind of has that punch when they share with other people. But I think what I encourage them to do is, no, share your story, because that's part of it too. It's like, even as a Christian, that doesn't mean that your life is easy, right, every Christian faces trial and tribulations and they're different, and God's given to one what maybe others couldn't do, and so on. So, yeah, I'm thankful that you, that you shared that thing.
Speaker 2:I just want to like touch on what you said. It's not that I don't appreciate other people who have stories like me, but it's so funny if you're listening and you're like I don't have an important testimony. Most of the people that I listen to, like, if I think of, like the christians who I, who I regularly listen to them on podcasts or whatever they are people who grew up in the church. Right, I'm not like seeking out people with like bang up testimony, like it's fine if they do. I'm not like purposely not seeking out people with crazy testimonies, um, but for me it's actually really cool to hear people who it's like, because there can also be this perception who it's, I guess, who I was going to say like, who it's like they, they believed in God their entire life and they've just been like, how have they worked through these different stages of things? How have they fallen into different things and pulled themselves back out? Because I feel like that's more it's not interesting.
Speaker 2:This sounds horrible. It's not interesting to me that someone didn't used to believe in God and now they do. I'm like okay, but now that you do like, how do you wrestle with these different like things? So I just want to encourage anyone who has believed in God the whole time that those are like. Those are the teachers that I really like listening to, because it's it's hearing how they like work through things, interface with God when they doubt their faith. Because I can have this perception to that. It's like from January 4, on, I'm never supposed to doubt the power of God and everything is fine and like. Would that be ideal? Yes, but is that how my day to day life has been lived? Not always. So it's helpful to hear that it's not just because I'm new to faith.
Speaker 1:It's that like that happens to everyone in faith research done on attachment theory and one is called correspondence theory and one is called the compensation theory. Correspondence theory is those who grew up in the church. Whatever their parents modeled for them, they tend to attribute those same characteristics to God. So if their parents were harsh, critical, judgmental, they grew up believing that God is harsh, critical, judgmental. So they'll read those passages in scripture and say, look see here, god is just so. I have to make sure I'm on the straight and narrow and so on right, and then they themselves can also become very judgmental. But if their parents were loving, caring, kind, gentle, then they read scripture through that lens and see God as kind, caring and gentle.
Speaker 1:So it corresponds with the way that their parents treat them, interesting kind caring and gentle, so it corresponds with the way that their parents treat them. The compensation theory is usually people who do not grow up in the church so they go live their life and then they start. When they do receive the Lord, come into contact with the church. Now God compensates for everything that they feel that they lack in their childhood. So you see God as kind of the savior of everything that I needed security, comfort, love, patience, kindness all of these things that I didn't get as a child. Now in my relationship with God, I'm seeing it and I'm experiencing it for the first time, and so for them, they feel it compensates for everything that they lacked in their childhood.
Speaker 1:So I love hearing these stories where we're seeing these, these um characteristics, because it does teach us a lot about how we relate to god. You know, um, you shared in your story that there was a time where you, where you also became an atheist and I'm curious was that during the new age spirituality? Was it after you came to the lord? Where was that piece out?
Speaker 2:no, no, that was more I feel like early graduate school, a couple years um. I just like kind of talked about it as like biological determinism, um, but that was essentially like the few years where I was just like there is nothing beyond what I can see, like I can see it all. This is all that there is um, and so I don't know if it was like it wasn't as though I was like out there, being like I am an antichrist, like this is what it is, but I mean, if you're not for him, you're against him. So in some ways I guess I was by default um, but but I was just convinced that, like this was all just biological and that was it okay, yeah, no, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:That makes sense too. So, now that you're in the Lord and have remained sober, still have some struggles here and there. What is something that you've been able to? What is the biggest takeaway, I guess, from your relationship with the Lord? How has he spoken to you recently, and even through your book?
Speaker 2:with the Lord. How has he spoken to you recently? And even through your book? Yeah, um, I think so many ways. I feel like recently, um, one of the biggest lessons that I've been learning is just that, like I don't get to plan, um, like I don't get, I don't get to know what's next, I just get to like have faith in that. Um, and I feel like that's been like.
Speaker 2:I like, with the book coming out and all this stuff, I was like, okay, I'm an author now. I like need to start writing on Substack, which I did in October. I'm like gonna focus more on Instagram, I'm like all of this stuff. And then, like there's a whole story about how it happened, but like god was like no, you're actually gonna take a full-time job. What the book just came out. And he's like no, this is like what it is.
Speaker 2:And there was just some like crazy signs like I'm a big, like god has spoken to me through, like people, obviously, but just through like that. You know that thing where you like see something and someone else can talk you out of it because they're like well, that happens a million times. But like you see it and it just has that like ping in your heart where you're like, oh, that's God talking to me right now. There was just like so many things that I could not deny that this is where God wants me for the moment. But I feel like what's so cool about God is that, like, when I try to calculate things which I love to calculate things right I was in school for so long Like I can calculate how much time is in the day, and if you give me a full time job, I'm not gonna be able to do all the things that I'm supposed to be doing for you and your kingdom. Like, if I have to do this, all the things that I'm supposed to be doing for you and your kingdom. Like if I have to do this, and he's like you're going to be fine, like watch this.
Speaker 2:And what happened is just like a bunch of things. I had filled my day with a bunch of things that I didn't need to be doing, and a bunch of these things that were actually just sort of like I don't want to say waste of time, because some of them were useful, but like I didn't need to be doing anyway, fell away. Um, and like I didn't need to be doing anyway, fell away, and like I still have time, like I have not changed the cadence at which I post, I still write an essay every week that goes up on Saturday. I just like also have a job during the daytime now, and so it's been really cool to just watch that happen and even allow people to step into roles that they haven't before. Like for the last couple of years, um, I've taught this recovery workshop with my husband on Tuesday nights and it starts at five, um, and I need to be working.
Speaker 2:I mean it's remote, but I need to be working till five and it's like 20 minutes away, so I cannot do that workshop, um, but it allowed me to be like, hey, what if Amanda does it with you, right, which is a woman who goes to our home group, who's been like, progressing in her faith, and like my husband does it with Amanda and it's going so well. So it's just also like to give other people places where I didn't even know that they, like, had God's trying to. You know, use their gifts over there and you can use my gifts over here and I don't need to be in all of the places at once. So it's even been cool to see things where it's like, but I have to do that workshop and it's like no, the workshop has to get done because it helps a lot of people, but do am I the person who has to do that?
Speaker 1:No, and that's hard. Yeah, yeah, it's so. Yeah, yeah, it's so. Yeah, it's so hard when we're seeing our gifts to be able to, to be used in a specific area and god needs needing us in maybe a different area from that to develop other gifts probably yeah, and it's just been cool to see like how, like literally, not only did I start a full-time job, but I've been going to this new church, like a church.
Speaker 2:They just had week three last week, um in Minneapolis, um, and so they have like no teams right, like no one's serving. They're just trying to figure things out, um. So I like joined their communications team and I said that I would write the emails that they send out, which is like a recap of Sunday and an invitation email, and it's like I'm gonna add running all the emails for this brand new church. I'm gonna add full-time job and God's like, yeah, it's gonna be fine, just like do it so. And it has been, and I think that's that's probably been my biggest lesson as of late. There's been different lessons, obviously, tons of them over the last four years, but I think that's been my biggest lesson as of late. And I think it's cool Like again going back to that.
Speaker 2:Like if you just let God keep progressing, you like for me for the last four years, or whether it's for over 30 years for some of your listeners you know what I mean Like if they've just been a Christian since they were five that like there keeps being these new layers of lessons, because it's like when I first started, that lesson of like hey, you actually have to forgive everyone, was like massive. And then this lesson of like holding hate in your heart for others was massive. This lesson of like you need to take responsibility for your actions and causing the situations in your life right was massive. But it's like I get those now. I, the second, that I feel disturbed about something. I'm like what did I do to cause this? Because I know that I did something and so, like now that those things are automatic, it's like these more subtle things that I learned, like hey, maybe stop thinking that you're the one who runs the show, lisa, and realize that God is the one who runs the show.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Yeah, it's such a different approach to life when we're able to kind of really take a step back and reflect on how we are in any given situation. You know, basically, when the Bible talks I think it's in James, when it talks about the mirror how we forget very easily what we see in the mirror when we leave it. And, yeah, that idea, we forget kind of our, our, our influence in different situations, our impact in different situations or our responsibilities in different situations. That's why we have the word of God. It kind of reflects back to us like, hey, we're sinners too, not just all the other people around us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's this one line I should know because I like read it all the time it's. I have it literally just a physical bookmark and a physical Bible that is over there. But when I was applying for this job I was doing I know they say, don't always do Bible roulette where you just like open the Bible and are like, what do you have for me today? I know there's that, but that's what I was doing, so I was doing that, doing that.
Speaker 2:And there's this like line I don't even know what book it's in which is sad, um, but it's basically I think it might be Deuteronomy somewhere, but it's just like God knows better. It's like God basically like stop trying to create your own wisdom. Like the best wisdom of all comes from above. Um, and that's been like big for me, me just, and I think like work, projects and try like the life plans I was talking about, or even we just like recently moved into this house and when we were house shopping, it's like stop thinking that me obsessively spending more time doing something is going to get me closer to the right answer. Like pray about it and listen and follow the steps that God is pointing me toward and that otherwise I'm just spinning my wheels and wasting time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's good, that's really good. Gosh, I feel like we've covered so much. Lisa, I'm curious is there, before we close today, is there anything that I missed, anything that you feel like? You know what I mean, as, as we're talking about this, I think this would be really good for your audience to take away from this conversation, kind of like a takeaway message, um, or just maybe something that I I didn't cover um, I feel like maybe just circling back a little bit on the like various mental health stuff, um, because I know people struggle with that, like in various ways and at all different levels.
Speaker 2:Like you may have, um, people who are like having debilitating anxiety, like I had on here. Or you may have people who are just like, hey, I get nervous a lot. Or like before I go to social settings I get nervous. Or before public speaking I get nervous. It's not taking over my life, but I still like there's stuff here. Or like depression, right, there's like I can't get out of bed for two weeks, which is I've suffered from. And then there's also just like I need an extra nap because I just like I'm fatigued. And then there's just like I'm sad and I don't know what. Right, there's all different levels of these things. So I'm not just speaking toward people who like have a clinical diagnosis, um, in the eating disorder too, right, it's like there's people who are starving themselves to death and vomiting up their food all the time, like I was.
Speaker 2:And there's people who are just like you're a little weird about food and you're like afraid of butter, afraid of gluten, right and there's just like little stuff going on with food, um, and what I found is that like really slowing down and examining myself has brought so much healing, like across that spectrum. Because kind of I've had that experience like whatever I call it chunky sin or something, but like the chunky mental health, like God helped me with a lot of that in the beginning, but now I don't suffer from that anymore and I suffer from more of like the second half of all of those spectrums I was talking about. If I'm gonna suffer at all, and every time there's always something spiritual going on with me underneath it. And it's like if I can just slow down and be honest with myself, compassionate with myself, right, because God would want us to be compassionate with ourselves, compassionate with myself, but honest with myself about what's really going on. Like if I'm having a day where I'm just like really tired and like sad and I don't know why to look at, like who am I angry at? Or like what am I trying to control? Or like what am I not giving to God that like things for me are not?
Speaker 2:My most recent essay was despair is not biological, was the title of it, which is a little bit snippety, but what I was trying to like really get at is that, like my experience of whether it's despair, anxiety, eating disorders, alcoholism, whatever it is is that like it doesn't mean that the chemicals in my brain don't eventually get affected, but that that's not like ground zero. Ground zero is what's going on with me spiritually and then brain chemicals manifest, behaviors manifest, all these other things manifest. But like, what is going on underneath that and when I can be super honest with myself? I watched a lot of that stuff like go away, away, because what's really happening is I'm getting like stuck in my own sin and sometimes it's super minor stuff that I really just don't feel like admitting to. Um, like a funny example is like leaving my husband and I go to the Minnesota Wild a lot the NHL hockey team, um and I was just like tired and I didn't want to be there.
Speaker 2:So I'm like you know being just having feelings that are not feelings of happiness, and we're leaving and we get in the car and he's like wants to show me some like video on his phone and then I'm like can we just go home, like in that town? And he just like looked over and was like I'd prefer it if you didn't tell me what to do, um, and I'm literally just like so mad, right, and so like that's kind of the moments I'm talking about is like I'm so upset in that moment if I did not pause and self-examine and talk now I did that in a second I would be anxious that night, I would be depressed the next day, I would maybe even get weird about food again if I let it go on for so long. So like those things for me, like those different mental health symptoms manifest from just like the tiniest little things that I let faster. So like in that moment, because of me, I let myself be mad for like 10 seconds.
Speaker 2:I'm like this freaking guy, um, my loving husband and then um, right, and then I sat there and I was like, okay, I'm mad at him right now because he called me a control freak, which he didn't actually do, but that's what he did in my head, um, and then it's like then, for second, I sit there and then I'm like I was being controlling and like, even further back than that, I was like resentful that the game was going on for too long, right, so, and it's just silly things.
Speaker 2:But it's like, if I can just look at that and be like I was being self-centered, I was being resentful, and then I was being controlling and like that's okay, and when I can just go to God and be like, hey, I was struggling tonight with resentment, with selfishness and with being controlling of my husband, um, like, please help me with those, take them away and be helpful, then it's like funny, right. Like then I like started laughing in the car and he was like what? And I was like, well, you call me a control freak and I was annoyed at you for doing that, and then I realized that I was being one, and then you can have this like funny interface and it actually also like so, like the relationship is better, and like the spiritual part of just being like I need to confess that I was being a brat and that, and that doesn't make me like it doesn't sink me into shame, it actually does. The other thing, which is like heals those things by just being able to confess them to God and another person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that was. I think this is the piece that a lot of people miss when they go to counseling, right? So there's this belief and I'm going to talk about this at some point on my, on my IG page this, this myth of if you go to counseling, you're going to heal or you're healing, but really it's the work that you do outside of it. Right, because people continue to go to counseling sometimes and there's no change, because they think the going to counseling itself is what's causing some change, or or just better understanding, but only in session.
Speaker 1:But what you just explained is here's what it looks like when I experience it I pause, I reflect, I challenge, I confront. What's my responsibility? How did I respond? And, being to your point, being honest with myself about what this interaction was like, and then that's what continues to bring the healing. But I think if there's any common thread that I've seen is those who go to counseling but then don't do the work. They continue to struggle with that, with that piece of being honest with themselves. So I really like how you kind of paused and walked us through what that looks like for you, because I think people miss that. What does this look like on a day-to-day, exactly like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it can be so minor. So many people would just be like, oh whatever, just brush that under the rug.
Speaker 1:And it's like exactly like silent the whole car ride home, and then everyone would have been like in their own little like thing. And then it gets worse and everything builds up, and then the next one builds up and and then you have these, these eruptions, right where I could have dealt with this when it was small. Now that it's big, it becomes a huge issue, um, but yeah, no, that that was. That was really good and and thank you for bringing us back to that, there is so much to say on mental health and maybe that could be a conversation for another time. But, um, lisa, thank you for being on the show. I really appreciate you sharing your story. And, um, can you tell us just a little bit about your book? I know we've talked about it here and there throughout our conversation, but, yeah, I'm going to post it on the show notes. But, yeah, what could the audience look forward to if they were to buy your book?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it's called 52 Life-Changing Lessons I Learned in Recovery and it's basically 52 lessons that are not dissimilar from some of the ones that we talked about today. So it's basically, if you think of just like the mini lessons that were in there, like about forgiveness or about whatever, it's 52 of those.
Speaker 2:Some of them are about coming to believe some of them are a little bit like addiction, specific, what is a craving to me spiritually? Or what is alcoholism, um, what is an eating disorder? But then the whole second half of the book, um, is basically like relatable to anyone. So yeah, that's, that's what that's about. I was on Amazon.
Speaker 1:Can you get anywhere?
Speaker 2:It's on Amazon, DM me if you can't find it. Just DM me and I will find a way to get you a copy.
Speaker 1:Sounds good, sounds good. Well, I appreciate you being on the show and thank you so much, and hopefully we can do another one sometime.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1:All.