God Attachment Healing
Hi everyone! Welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Sam Landa. This podcast is dedicated to Christians who want to understand why they relate to God in the way they do. I explore how our early childhood relationship with our parents--specifically with how they met or did not meet our needs--influences how we relate to ourselves, the church, and to God. Because much of the pains and struggles of life are intertwined in these three areas, I discuss with my guests how we can find healing from the pain, confusion, doubt, and anger experienced in these relationships. If you're interested in learning more about your attachment style and how to heal from the pain you’ve experienced in the relationships mentioned above, then this podcast is for you. Welcome to the show! I'm happy you're here!
God Attachment Healing
From Skepticism to Faith: A Journey of Faith from the Perspective of a Catholic
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Our conversation explores the significant ways in which childhood experiences and family dynamics shape our views of God. By unpacking Ricardo's personal journey from skepticism to faith, we examine the impact of parental absence, cultural influences, and life changes as catalysts for understanding spirituality.
• Discussion of Theosis and its meaning in Christian faith
• Ricardo’s upbringing in a single-parent household
• The absence of a father figure's impact on his perception of God
• Maternal influences in shaping his understanding of faith
• The move away from faith during adolescence and the journey to atheism
• The role culture plays in developing beliefs about God
• An intellectual awakening leading back to God
• Reflection on stories and myths as windows into spirituality
• Personal experiences leading to newfound appreciation for life in the U.S.
• Emphasis on gratitude and faith in building a future for the next generation
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God Attachment Healing
ABOUT ME 👇
My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm excited that you're here. It's been a while, but I've been on search for or in search for a lot of guests and I have a very special guest today, ricardo Stacey. I'll introduce him in a little bit. But, as you guys know, we talk about attachment, we talk about our relationship with God on this podcast and just different ways in which we can connect with him through prayer, community scripture and hopefully I've been providing that type of value for you. And today's episode is going to talk about how our upbringing influences how we view God, and Ricardo Stacey has his own podcast. It's called the Theosis Podcast. Did I say that right, ricardo?
Speaker 2:Yeah, theosis yeah.
Speaker 1:Theosis Podcast. I'm going to ask a question about that because I've been wanting to ask you for a while about what the?
Speaker 1:meaning is so I think I have it, but I'm curious to hear from you. But, yeah, it's going to be a great conversation. I hope you guys tune into the end because Ricardo has a really great story, one of redemption, one of maybe even some prodigal pieces there. But overall, yeah, it ties in well with our God attachment topic. As always, subscribe to the podcast, listen, share, wanting to continue to grow our IG page and also just continue to get the word out about God attachment healing. So, thank you for tuning in, thank you for your support. Let's go ahead and dive in. Ricardo Stacy is our guest today and Ricardo we met through Instagram.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:And started kind of seeing each other's content. I think he's first linked up through Psych and Theo and then we connected through God Attachment, Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I started following you guys on Instagram and then we just kind of became online pen pals.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's been fun and we were on your podcast a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually I'm going to try to have it out by this Monday, so I'm really excited for that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were talking about false teachers in the church and the different approaches of how psychology and theology tie into that. So, yeah, a little shout out to Psyched Theo and also Theosis podcast, and my question is what does Theosis mean?
Speaker 2:Right Theosis Okay, so essentially it's a Greek word. Right theosis Okay, so essentially it's a Greek word. It's used in the Orthodox Christian Church and it's also used in the Eastern Rite of the Catholic Church and essentially what it means. It's kind of like the I guess humanity becoming divine. So yeah it's, I guess, to use. Maybe this is like a new age word, but like transcendence, so it's leaving behind your humanity in order to become more divine, more saintly.
Speaker 1:Would it be similar to kind of growing in Christ-likeness?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's definitely part of it. Yeah, and then another word that's used for it is also deification, but I guess, to be like, it's not about you know, oh, can people become God? Really you know let's you know, let's not go into that territory right so yeah, it's not about people becoming deities, but yeah, I guess it's about, like, the burning off of your, your shortcomings, your over maybe exactly.
Speaker 1:And there you go, yeah, and aspiring for more, yeah okay, cool, cool why you interview a lot of interesting people and love the conversations that you have. You have a really great flow and yeah, so that made me excited about our conversation after our last episode too. But yeah, man, well, go ahead. Is there anything that you'd want to share about yourself that you think the audience should know? You know?
Speaker 1:part of it is your religious upbringing and background and you know who you are, what you do and maybe just anything you want to share about your podcast.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, who am I? Already, it's a tough question. Deep philosophical. Yeah, who am I? Who is Ricardo Stacey? Yeah, I guess. Yeah, just kind of a brief overview. Yeah, so I was raised Catholic, baptized as a baby, did my first communion confirmation and I was always very skeptical, very doubtful from a very young age so I just drifted away, didn't really think about my faith very much and then you know, it's just kind of been. It's really been a lifelong process really.
Speaker 2:I came back to the catholic church in december of 2023, so just a little over a year ago. Um, but yeah, the I guess the journey of getting here it's been lifelong. Um, not to be like too pretentious, but I guess I've just always had kind of a philosophical way of thinking ever since I was a little kid. A big part of that is actually my obsession with movies. You know, I was always really big into movies and video games and yeah, I remember like being a little kid and my favorite movie franchise was always Alien, the Alien movies.
Speaker 2:I remember especially that very first one I really like Just because there's like so much mystery. You know it's kind of like this like HP, lovecraft, like cosmic horror I think they call it where it's just like you know the vastness of the universe, what's out there. So it always had me thinking, you know, that's from a very young age. And then I remember when I was was living in mexico for some time and uh, yeah, I was with my mom and my brother came to visit us and he had just gotten a playstation 2 and you could play dvds on it.
Speaker 2:And so he, he had the matrix on dvd and so he popped that in and yeah, I was maybe like I don't know, eight or nine years old, I forget, but yeah, I was like so blown away. I mean, on the one hand you have like really cool action, special effects, all that, but just this idea you know, I had never thought about it like what if this world that I exist in, what if this isn't real? What if I'm like dreaming or something? And so it's always really fascinating with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then later on, as a teenager watching Blade Runner, the original Blade Runner from 1982. And yeah, just thinking like, because a big part of that movie is, you know, how do you make a machine more human? And so what makes us human and a big part of that is our memories, right, like our accumulated experiences, and so that defines our personality. And so, yeah, just thinking about that, because, yeah, they insert fake memories into these robots so that they so the robots themselves think they're human, because I guess it kind of helps them be better robots.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I never really thought about that too much. Maybe that's kind of a plot hole there, but yeah, it's just like a super fascinating thing, right, and so, yeah, just always like really fascinated with these big questions, and then yeah as I got older, in my 20s, I became super fascinated with philosophy.
Speaker 2:I had friends who were philosophy students actually, and we would just, you know, sit around drinking beers talking about philosophical things and like they would bust out philosophy books and talk about I don't know, like Descartes or you know these, like weird French philosophers and you know real, real pretentious stuff. But, yeah, it was just always really fascinating.
Speaker 1:And then you had questions for as long as you could remember, yeah, and I always questioned things about life in general.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly who am I? What makes me me? And yeah, like who? Um, even though I did, I guess you could say, reject god, I was always kind of like, who put this all here? Like, how am I existing? Where's my consciousness coming from? And, yeah, just really obsessed with that. And so, yeah, I think a big part of that, yeah, it was just like philosophically thinking. And then I got pretty into this one philosopher, slavoj Žižek. Maybe you've heard of him. It's like this really weird guy. I think he's, um, like Swiss or something, I don't know some European guy, um, and yeah, I remember he had this uh, it was like a TV series, I think and then he ended up making a movie too, where he just he would analyze movies and then break down, like the philosophical ideas behind them so obviously that was really fascinating to me because I was into movies my whole life and into philosophy.
Speaker 2:So I remember watching that and being super fascinated with how he would break down movies into like these philosophical principles and political stuff as well. And then that translated over to me becoming fascinated with Jordan Peterson because that was also kind of what he did. He would watch like he would break break down Disney movies, for example like the Lion King, peter Pan.
Speaker 2:He would break that down into what does this mean? What's that? Oh, no, nothing. Oh, did you say something, sam? No, can you hear me?
Speaker 2:And I just became super fascinated with Jordan Peterson and how he would analyze these you know kids movies, but then make it into something like just so epic, right, with, like psychology and religion as well. And so, yeah, that got me super curious, me super curious, um. And then also all that paired with the fact that my whole life, I, I guess I've always felt like um, in a sense, like I can always improve, I can always be better, right. And so, yeah, all that, paired with, like this, I guess, self-improvement kind of way of thinking, it did it. It led me to like, what is the final thing missing? And then, yeah, I got super curious about religions, all religions.
Speaker 2:And then that narrowed down to Christianity and remembering, you know, the faith that I grew up with, which is Catholicism. And, yeah, I have a buddy who I've known for a while now, for about five years, five, six years, I think and he's Catholic. He would go to church and I was always aware of this, but we never really talked about it too much. And then, yeah, just one day I was like, hey, man, let me go to church with you. And then, yeah, I was like, okay, this is what has been missing in my life. Yeah, that's basically how I got here Basically we haven't really got here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. You know, one of the factors that tends to stem from belief in God or how you relate to God is the background religion, whatever that may be for you, so in your case, Catholicism. In my case I grew up Baptist. So, yeah, so there's a lot of overlap in how we would tend to view God, and that's part of what we're going to explore today.
Speaker 1:But, one big part of your story too, so growing up Catholic. But another big part of it, as you shared last time when we were speaking, was kind of growing up in a single-parent home, specifically single mother, right. So can you tell us a little bit about that? You know what was your mom like? What was growing up in a home with a single mother.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so well so I live in California. I've been here for a very long time, but I was originally, I was born in Canada, and yeah, so my mom comes from Mexico and my dad, he was an Irish, Canadian guy and yeah, so that was my mom's second marriage. She had been previously married before and she had my brother. I have an older sibling who's older than me by 10 years, which is a pretty big gap, but yeah so I was born and then, when I was about four months old, my dad he had a severe aneurysm.
Speaker 2:And it was actually like the second or third aneurysm that he had, but this one in particular was very severe, and so he ended up in a coma for a while, I think a couple weeks, yeah. And then I think they were they were getting ready to pull the plug that they asked my mom like, oh, it seems like he's not, you know, gonna wake up. Do you want to pull a plug? And then she was like I don't want to make that decision. Um, my grandmother was still alive at the time, so she's like, oh, all up. Uh, my husband's mom, you know, she brought him into this world, so I think it's fair that she determined that she made the decision if they should pull the plug on on her son.
Speaker 2:Um, but then, yeah, my dad did end up waking up from the coma, but at that point, yeah, he was, I mean, there was just a lot of brain damage at that point. Um, so, yeah, he was never the same. He was essentially like a child, you know. He was like, yeah, a baby, he was like reborn in a sense, and so how old were you at the?
Speaker 2:time I was a baby.
Speaker 1:I was like four months old, so this is kind of hearing from your mom as you got older, kind of what the whole story was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and yeah, and I still kind of, uh, piecing things together, you know I'll forget over the years. And then you know, kind of like, suddenly have questions like, oh, hey, like what about this? And so, yeah, it's, it's coming from, yeah, my mother and and my brother as well. My brother, uh, he would live with, he lived with my mom and my dad and so, yeah, I think my dad even adopted my brother. So, yeah, my brother got to know him and remembers because, yeah, he was around, you know, like a little over 10 years old.
Speaker 2:So, yeah he remembers my dad and he'll tell me about him. Over 10 years old, uh. So, yeah, he remembers my dad and he'll tell me about him. But, uh, yeah, my dad, um, yeah, he was never the same again.
Speaker 1:Uh, they had to, like, teach him how to talk again, how to walk again, um, yeah, really really care for him at any point too, along with your, with your mom, or no no, no, he basically lived um the rest of his life in like I don't even know what they call them, like these hospital home places where yeah, there were like nurses around the whole time taking care of him and these other patients in this home and I did.
Speaker 2:I would go visit him once in a while. I think the last time I saw him I was maybe it was around like eight or nine, something like that. I think that's always my go-to Like oh, I was like eight or nine something like that I think that that's always what my go-to like.
Speaker 2:Oh, I was like eight or nine years old, I remember, but um, yeah, he never really had a actual father-son experience with him no, no, it's like, as long as I can remember, I knew he was my dad, but I just knew that, yeah, like something, something had gone wrong and he wasn't um, I guess, normal for lack of a better word like I just knew like something was was off. So, yeah, it wasn't like oh, like I wasn't ignorant about it, I just always kind of knew, um, but, um, yeah, I mean from a young age, like, yeah, my mom. I mean from a young age like, yeah, my mom. I mean she was like, okay, well, I have to take care of my newborn baby and my 10-year-old son. So, yeah, she just kind of like took charge and, yeah, my dad had to be taken care of in these, like, I guess, nursing home places, whatever they're called um, in these like, I guess, nursing home places, whatever they're called um.
Speaker 2:And then, uh, yeah, I was pretty much it was raised by by my mom. And then, uh, my brother, I guess also helped raise me and uh, yeah, eventually, my mom, you know she um, because men would be interested in my mom, even even though you know she, she had kids, but you know she would have men approach her and want to date her. And so, yeah, from a very early age. I remember, um, yeah, she would have boyfriends, um, and yeah, for the most part like great guys, uh, but yeah, I never really felt, um, like any of them were like a father figure really, if anything. Yeah, like as far as father figures go, my brother in a way. But you know, I always wanted my brother to be my brother, right, like I always wanted us to like be more friends. But yeah, he did, he had to take charge, I guess early on and you know, help like change my diapers and I don't know like maybe take me to school, feed me, like all this stuff, right?
Speaker 2:so yeah, he uh he was promoted, I guess like dad promoted from from brother to dad early on which is a huge adjustment for all of you, right?
Speaker 1:a huge adjustment for moms to kind of see your brother in that way, for you to grow up without a dad at a, in a situation that was, you know, had nothing to do with you, right, kind of something that happened. But yeah, I'm curious, you know what your mom was like as a mom, so you know, what do you remember most about her? Was she kind of? Was she dominant? Was she kind of caring and loving, like? What was that relationship like for you, as you remember your mom?
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean in general great mother really. Yeah, she's very, very fierce. Yeah, you said the word dominant and for sure, yeah, she is very dominant. I mean just in general. You know her life story. It's really impressive. She's been through so much. You know her life story. It's really impressive. She's been through so much.
Speaker 1:I mean she comes from a very poor town in.
Speaker 2:Mexico a very poor home, puerto, yeah, yeah, and yeah, she's from. It's called La Arena.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in Guerrero, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the full name of the town is like Paso de Arena, but then sometimes they call it Tierra Caliente, like hot dirt, because it's just like super hot over there. But, yeah, super small town, very poor, a lot of like the public town drunks, you know, like that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:But then yeah, so she came from that like basically living in like a I think their house was made of like adobo, like basically a mud hut, and but then, yeah, because of my grandmother, who I mean, god bless her, because, yeah, my grandfather was just like a drunk and gambler and you know, I love the guy, he's my grandfather. But yeah he was not so great.
Speaker 1:He had like a strong lineage of strong moms. Exactly yeah, my family. It's very matriarchal, you could say very, very strong yeah.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of and, yeah, I'm not the only one in our family. There's been a lot of, you know, single motherhood in our family and, yeah, I'm not the only one in our family.
Speaker 2:There's been a lot of, you know, single motherhood in in our family and yeah divorces and yeah, there's there's definitely a lot of, yeah, strong women, uh, in my family and so, uh, but yeah, then she, she was raised, they, they left the small town, they went to Mexico City for a better opportunity, thanks to my grandmother, because she was like, yeah, we can't, we can't stay in this small town and, like you know, I don't want my daughters to, like, become, you know, prostitutes or my sons to become, you know, alcoholics, like their father, you know these drunk gamblers. So they went to Mexico City and then, yeah, everybody got an education and made good lives for themselves and then, yeah, my mom had a good career when?
Speaker 1:did she go?
Speaker 2:So she was a secretary for the American Chamber of Commerce in Mexico City yeah. Yeah, and then well before that she worked as a secretary in a few different companies, like successful companies.
Speaker 1:I think, one they made auto parts.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, eventually she worked for the government essentially. And then, yeah, she got married. Her first husband was her boss, but that guy he ended up being very abusive and yeah, so she left him and yeah, they got married in the church. He was Catholic as well and yeah they I think they're technically still married because they never got their marriage like through the whole yeah, because that whole process through the Catholic church of the annulment, yeah it's very long and tedious, so I don't think they ever did that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, as far as like the government stuff, yeah, they signed the divorce papers and all that and yeah, so she left her life in Mexico to go to Canada yeah, I guess in pursuit of like something better. And then you know, met my dad, had me and yeah, I mean just overall, yeah, my mother she's a warrior. Even she herself, she'll say because yeah, she's from.
Speaker 1:Guerrero.
Speaker 2:Mexico, which Guerrero means warrior.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she'll even say it herself. Yeah, there's so much meaning there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, she's like I had to be a warrior, because it's even in the name of like where I'm from. Yeah, it's true, she did. She had to, yeah, take charge and make a lot of difficult choices and struggle through a lot of things and, yeah, she has persevered.
Speaker 2:And then at the same time, yeah, I don't know I think over the years she's become more like nurturing, loving, softer. I mean now because my brother has kids, so she's a grandmother, and I think that also because, you know, as a grandparent, I guess it's changes you yeah, yeah less less responsibility, just like the fun stuff, uh. But uh, I mean, she was never like cold or anything like that, but maybe just not like do what she had to do to just keep you guys afloat.
Speaker 1:So that was the warrior part but it sounds like you're also saying that she, in the midst of all, that she also didn't lose her tenderness and motherly air towards you guys yeah, yeah, I always felt, yeah, like she, she loved me, um and uh, she, definitely she.
Speaker 2:I would say she raised me, right, you know, she raised me with good morals, even though, like, yeah, I did reject like the whole faith aspect and she didn't push it on me too much. I mean, she did Once in a while. It's like we're going to church, you're going to go, and you know there's no getting out of it. Yeah, yeah, her faith has always been important to her. What did she?
Speaker 1:teach you about god, ricardo, like, was there anything? Because sometimes, uh, parents teach us things about god implicitly and other times explicitly, and the ideal is that both right, both the way that they live their lives you know your mom, showing that she's a warrior, but also that she's able to be caring and loving and then, explicitly the words that they're saying. Like, how do their words support what it is that they're saying? So, was there any? Like, obviously, going going to church is one piece, but was there any specific message that your mom taught you about God? Like you know, you have to know, mijo, god is good, or something like that. You know, yeah, things that our parents or grandparents try to teach us about God? Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 2:What comes to mind is gratitude. It's always like, dale, gracias a Dios, be grateful to God for what you have. Yeah, like don't compare yourself to others. Yeah, maybe, yeah, I guess, some of the things that she would teach me. Maybe they weren't even like through the lens of the church of faith, but yeah, she definitely.
Speaker 2:She taught me not to be selfish which is really important, like, yeah, to think of others, right, and I remember like I have this one cousin who he was always super spoiled and my mom would criticize her sister, my aunt, a lot for how she raised my, my cousin, yeah, so she always put that in me, like, be humble, right, and think of others, don't just think of yourself. But then, yeah, as far as like God specifically, I guess, yeah, the the gratitude thing is very, very important and yeah, it's just kind of like, um, like a responsibility and and cultural too, right, um, it's like, yeah, there's just who we are, is what we do.
Speaker 2:so, yeah, just very ingrained in like, yeah, we're, we're catholic, you were baptized, um, you know, she put me through my, my whole uh, communion confirmation, uh process, which I did that in Mexico, which I don't know if listeners are familiar with the whole process of the Catholic Church here in America, usually for kids, yeah, they put them in like these classes, you know, teach them about the church, the teachings of the faith.
Speaker 2:And yeah that can be like a very long process, but I remember the way they do it in mexico. It's like all very quick. Uh, actually, another one and one of my aunts she was like my teacher and she taught me and my cousins who were around my age, um, just like what, what we needed to know about the faith and what we needed to do for the, you know, first communion and confirmation. So yeah, it was like a super quick process uh, which, yeah, I guess that kind of lends to even though, yeah, I consider myself catholic, I go to the catholic church, but I'm still, I'm constantly learning.
Speaker 2:There's so much I don't know, and I think part of that is because, yeah, I was just treated as like a cultural thing, so I didn't have to, like sit through classes for a long time, uh, it's just like, yeah, you're gonna do this thing, uh, and so, like all my understanding of the church and of God, yeah, it's very in a cultural way and not so much, yeah, like something that I studied. So, still, it's a constant learning process.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that. You know. I think one of the things that always is highlighted when we talk about whether it be with parents or with your religious upbringing, is that both have a very significant impact on how we view God. And I'm curious, you know, knowing your history with your mom, with your church, how did you view God Like? What was your earliest memory of you know? Here's how I view God, like God is, and then you give some adjectives or descriptions of who God is for you, and has that changed over time?
Speaker 1:Because I know I'm sure you'll get to this in a little bit where there was a time where I think you said you became an atheist for a little bit and you know, kind of realized that that actually doesn't make a lot of sense, right? So you had a view of God before that. So I'm curious what that was, because I think it helps the audience kind of understand that you know how important the way that we view God and the way that we experience God it's so important to our faith.
Speaker 1:You know we have the disciples who were around him you know, around Jesus all the time so they were able to experience his presence and also learn from him, like he's talking to them. Here's who I am. So the descriptive, or the explicit. And then there's the modeling right, the implicit. Here's what I do, here's how I live out being the son of God. So, you know for you, what was that like you know? What did you know about God before becoming an atheist?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first I just want to say real quick that, yeah, this whole your approach to it, it's amazing and it makes so much sense to me because, yeah, we can't forget that, even though we are spiritual beings, we are part flesh as well. So, that is where the whole like psychological thing comes into place. And yeah, maybe some, some people, they'll overlook that and just focus on the whole spiritual aspect. But yeah, we are flesh as well, and so I think um and yeah, that's, that's by design.
Speaker 2:So psychology, I think, is very important. Uh, yeah, like understanding our personalities and who we are here on earth, right it does affect, affect our perception of heaven, of the divine. So, yeah, I think it's really interesting and that's why, when you reached out to me to have you and Tim on, I was like yes, immediately.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I just love the content you guys are putting out, because there is, for sure, a lot of overlap. So, yeah, I really like that. But, yeah, my perception of God like I said, I was very, you know, rebellious. I think my perception of God was yeah, it's this guy who I can't see and he wants to dictate how I live my life. And yeah, we kind of talked about it on my podcast when I had you guys on.
Speaker 2:Yeah just like from a very young age. I remember, like in Mexico, my neighbor. I told her, oh, it's going to be my birthday. And she's like, yeah, god willing. And I was like five years old. And I remember telling her what do you mean? God willing.
Speaker 1:It's going to be my birthday and I remember telling her what do you mean?
Speaker 2:God willing and so, yeah, I just always had that mentality of you know, who is this God guy? You know I can't see him and yeah, who is he to have authority over my life? And you know, I'd rather be at home playing video games than you know, going to church on Sundays it's so boring.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think my perception of God was always like, yeah, he's this authority figure and it's like okay, so I need to like worship Him and devote my life to Him. But yeah, I don't. Really I don't see why I should like I can't even see Him, I can't speak to Him directly and you know, honestly, sometimes, like I still like I can't even see him.
Speaker 2:I can't speak to him directly. And you know, honestly, sometimes, like I still, even though I am, I'm a Christ, I'm a Christian, I'm Catholic, I'm a Christ follower, but, yeah, sometimes I do, I'll have these questions. Still now, like you know, is God truly all good? Is he all loving?
Speaker 2:And you know, you mentioned, you know, the apostles, the disciples and getting to meet Jesus, and it's like sometimes I'll, yeah, I'll read, you know, the gospel and learn about Jesus, but then it's like, is this really the same God as the Old Testament God? You know, like we hear the story of the woman who was caught in adultery, that she was going to get stoned, right, and Christ said the whole thing about oh, he who is without sin has the first rock. And so, yeah, sometimes I'll think about that. I'm like I feel like, if this is the same God as the Old Testament God, like I do have this perception of the Old Testament God being more angry. So I'm like wouldn't he tell them yeah, you know, go ahead and stone her, but then, when you're done stoning her, stone each other, because you're all sinners, right?
Speaker 2:So I think I do think I have that mentality of like, yeah, God is a judger or a judge.
Speaker 1:God is a punisher.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I do have that view of God, which maybe, yeah, it's the more harsh view, like when I hear the stuff about, yeah, god's mercy and love, and I'm like you know as much as like, yeah, that is what I want, that's the truth that I want.
Speaker 2:But sometimes I'm like well, what's the evidence of that? I mean, we see so much injustice in the world, there's so much cruelty. Yeah, sometimes I do, I have doubts. I'm like you know, where is he? And this whole idea too, of if we're supposed to have a relationship with him. Shouldn't that go both ways? Like you know, people say like, oh, you, god wants you. But it's like I feel like I had to, like bring myself to him right, like I, I don't know. I guess in some ways I can say, yeah, throughout my life he's been guiding me, um, but yeah, I never had that like clear. Like, oh, yeah, he's, he's here with me and communicating with me. So, yeah, it's like, oh, if I'm supposed to have a relationship with him, why doesn't he present himself more? Like why am I the one that has to go to him?
Speaker 1:um, yeah, so there's this whole you can you imagine to record I was just thinking about this as you were sharing that.
Speaker 1:I wonder how different it would have been had your father been, um, uh, not in the state that he was in, but instead replicating all of that, that idea of being present with you, him communicating with you him asking how your day's going right, being really present in all of that, and if we were to talk about, yeah, god's present and he wants to be with you and your dad demonstrating that to you, like, that connection is what I see a lot of people make is that, well, yeah, of course he loves me, of course he wants to be with me, because they have a model with their father that he, that's all he, they're, that's all they've ever known, right? So that's a big piece of this, of this God attachment, is that when you understand those parts of your story, it's like, wow, you know. So all it took, because parents are representatives of who God is right, cause they're able to, they're able to meet your needs, especially when you're a baby, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're so dependent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, super dependent, right, and that's kind of the idea is that as we get older, we become more dependent on God because we realize our need for him.
Speaker 1:And it's so interesting to see that because it can change with time. Right, maybe your dad would have been really good at younger ages, but maybe when you hit teenage years or young adult years, maybe he distances himself from you. But that whole upbringing, the foundation, was set for you to understand God in such a way, because that's what was modeled for you at such a critical time. So it's just one of those things, it's just a question, right, it's one of those things. I'm not saying that would have been that way. But the commonality when it comes to attachment theory is that if you have a model of what I'm telling you that God is loving, caring, kind and gentle and leap to yes, god is, that way would be much easier when you had that modeled for you. And even, as you mentioned, god's kindness and his mercy, it doesn't really connect as well but his justice and wrath that makes a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 2:It really does, yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's really interesting seeing that, and sometimes that's modeled through our parents or through just what we receive teachings in the church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I even I mentioned it to you guys on my podcast that, because I'm Catholic, the Virgin Mary, she's very, very important to us. You know we venerate her, we hold her in very high regard to us. You know we venerate her, we hold her in very high regard and I've always, I do feel, you know, a strong connection to her. So, yeah, I can more understand Christ through her. It really helps it all more be more palatable, I guess in a way.
Speaker 2:Like, yeah, I can, just because I understand that, right, I understand more the love of a mother, right, like when I see, you know, these depictions of Mary holding the baby Jesus or, you know, when he's being crucified, yeah, like I can understand that, like, wow, like, looking at this mother, you know seeing her son dying, and like, just, yeah, her emotions, like I can understand that more because, yeah, my, I always, you know, I saw my mother, you know, going through, like, yeah, I guess, uh, because I am, I think I've always right, yeah, I've always been a good boy, I would say, but you know, I have put my mother through things and then I've been kind of a pain and so, yeah, I've definitely I've made her suffer in some ways.
Speaker 2:And so when I see, yeah, the virgin mary suffering because of her son, it's like, okay, yeah, that that makes sense to me.
Speaker 2:I can see that there there is that relatability, uh, and yeah, it makes total sense what you're saying how, how we, um, how we grew, I mean there's so many things that it affects, right, like I hear all the time about how, um, you know, especially with men I think it's both men and women but especially with men who grew up, uh, in a house without the father, you know, they're more prone to being in jail, prone to poverty, prone to mental illness and all this stuff. So fathers are incredibly important. Uh, I'm sure you know mental illness and all this stuff. So fathers are incredibly important. I'm sure you know there's all these other things that go along with it. Right, yeah, but yeah, it is incredibly important to have a father around.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, one thing, because you know I mentioned that my mom, she has had partners. She, actually, she just got remarried like three years ago. Yeah, I live here in the house with her and her husband great guy, but yeah, for a long period of time she was with this one particular boyfriend who at first you know, I really I love the guy.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I ever saw him as like a father figure, but I definitely I saw him as like my friend and I really liked him, I looked up to him, I admired him, but then he started becoming abusive, um, and you know, like I mentioned to the background that my mom comes from she, she had an abusive father and so I think for her it was just kind of like that's normal. And then her first uh husband was was an abusive guy. So, yeah, we were just kind of yeah in this environment, um where, yeah, I was kind of like unsure about this guy, so I went from like really loving him and then seeing his dark side you know he became more abusive and it's like, okay, well, I can't trust this guy.
Speaker 2:But you know, my mom keeps us in this situation, um, and so you know, yeah, I kind of felt unsafe, I guess, um, and then, yeah, we would, we would move around, cause so I was born in Canada and then this guy that she was with, uh, he was from Michigan, really close by, across the river. Uh, yeah, cause I was born in Windsor, ontario, which is across, uh, the Detroit river, detroit River, from Michigan. So, yeah, we moved to Michigan with him and then, yeah, when things would get too hectic in the home, we would move to Mexico, because my mom always had a house in Mexico and so that was kind of like our way of like leaving right, and so we'd go to Mexico and say, okay, like, you know, I'm gonna leave this guy once, once and for all.
Speaker 2:We're gonna go to Mexico and live our life over there, and so I'd go to school in Mexico. My mom, would you know, try to find a job, but then eventually, yeah, she would get back with him and we'd move back to Michigan and it was like, yeah, the cycle would start all over again and then, yeah, the guy, he was a heavy drinker, he had some bad habits, a heavy gambler, very similar to my grandfather. So you, can kind of see the whole.
Speaker 2:There's that Freudian thing right it permeates through the generations and yeah, so we would be in this unsafe environment. And so, as much as I do love my mother, I admire her, I'm great for her, I think I did always hold on to resentment towards her because of that, um, like, on the one hand, it was like so unstable, like I I never I feel like I didn't really have like a strong sense of self, a strong identity, because, yeah, I was like going to new schools and then, even if we did, if we were living in michigan, we would move to different parts of michigan. So I was in new schools constantly and then, yeah, in mexico I would, I would go to different schools. Uh, so, yeah, I was just like so unstable. So I think I've held on to resentment towards her for that.
Speaker 2:And then also, yeah, just like having her keep us around, this guy who was very abusive and yeah, you never knew like, yeah, one one night he could get like super angry, uh, and you know I was I was a kid like what am I gonna do? Right? Because like, yeah, yeah, I wanted to like defend, defend my mother and defend myself, but yeah, he was, he was a grown adult man. What could I do right? So, yeah, I think that for sure. Um, yeah, it has affected.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, I guess like my perception of like um father, father figures, I guess maybe like yeah um, or even just tapping into your philosophical mind, thinking to yourself um, you know, how is god involved in this if he's allowing this to happen? Type of thing, right? So, if God's supposed to be meeting a need of safety and security and I'm not experiencing that. That's hard to understand when you read that in Scripture about God being a safe haven for his children, right?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and just this idea that, like you know, god is just and he will make things right.
Speaker 1:It's like where is the?
Speaker 2:justice, you know, sometimes it feels like, you know, god is just and he will make things right. It's like where is the justice? You know? Sometimes it feels like, you know, is he watching? Is he seeing what's going on?
Speaker 1:like, yeah, there's so much injustice yeah, so so record what led then to the um move away from your faith. So what led to the um becoming an atheist like? What was that process like for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, becoming an atheist? Yeah, like, putting that label on myself. Um, I think that that was the thing of like, because, like I said, I was always very skeptical, but then, yeah, embracing that like yeah I'm an atheist.
Speaker 2:It was just becoming more aware of, like that, the fact that being an atheist was a thing. I was like, okay, that applies to me. And um, yeah, I guess my brother, because same with my brother, right, he was raised Catholic but then he always had his doubts and didn't really accept it, uh. And then, uh, yeah, so like I had mentioned, he helped raise me, but then he eventually he went away to live with his father, right, so like I stayed behind with my mom in michigan and then my brother.
Speaker 2:He came out to california to live with his dad. His dad had moved from mexico to california, so not to get too confusing, sorry, but um uh yeah so, so, my brother yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess he, just his dad, never really cared about his faith. So then that carried over to my brother, who didn't care about his faith, and then he just got influenced by the culture. You know, california is a very liberal place. People don't really care too much about their faith. Or if it is, if people are, you know know, religious christian, um, it's kind of just, yeah, like a cultural thing. Uh, I think, yeah, people here in california like I think they they prioritize more their politics like you have a lot of these.
Speaker 2:They call themselves like christian conservatives, but I think it's more like conservative christian, like it's more my politics. I'm Republican, you know I vote red and you know I also I believe in this Jesus guy. So, yeah, I think they prioritize more their politics than their faith. But anyways, yeah, so my brother he was an atheist and so then I came to live with my brother in California. It's a super long story, sorry to cause any confusion, but then, yeah, yeah, when I was a I was like 11 years old, I think I moved out to california to live with my brother and, yeah, he started influencing me.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, because, yeah, he was, he saying that kind of led to that I don't know if he would well to me directly.
Speaker 2:I don't remember him ever saying. But it but it was more his attitude. Like you know, he and I together we would watch, like South Park, a lot of shows on that channel, comedy Central.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you and the viewers are familiar.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we would just watch a lot of entertainment where, yeah, they would like make fun of religion and, yeah, kind of be proud of being atheists, and so I would see him. Yeah, just kind of like proud of being atheist and so I would see him. Yeah, just kind of like that was who my brother was and yeah, I looked up to him in so many ways.
Speaker 2:Uh, he was a big influence like I mentioned, you know he, he introduced me to the matrix and he influenced me a lot with, like, the music I would listen to and just so many things. So then, yeah, I also, I latched on to that as well and how old were you at the time? So yeah, when I started living with my brother.
Speaker 1:I think I was around 11. Oh wow, you were still young, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, pretty young, yeah, and then, yeah, then, you know, I became a teenager and in middle school started hanging around with like the bad crowd. Yeah, because I always thought of myself as like, oh, I'm like, I'm a good kid and my friends were always kind of like the more nerdier type, kids didn't really like get into too much trouble. But then, yeah, I kind of like I don't know I started wanting to be more rebellious and I know this is like a whole other, maybe psychological, theological thing, but yeah, I wanted to. I guess, kind of like I don't know the way I think about it, it's like I kind of wanted to like get dirty.
Speaker 2:Like I noticed like there's, yeah, like these kids who are more edgy and cooler, like these punk rock kids, and I was like, you know, I kind of I want to be like them, like, yeah, there's something intriguing about them. So, know, I kind of I want to be like them, like, yeah, they're, they're, they're something, something intriguing about them. So, yeah, I started hanging around with like the bad crowd, yeah, these punk rockers, like their. Their favorite movie is Clockwork Orange. I don't know if you're familiar that Stanley Kubrick movie, it's a movie from the 70s.
Speaker 2:It's just about like this gang. Yeah, it's like kind of in the future, this dystopian world, and it's about this gang, and that was like their favorite movie they would watch all the time. And so I started watching it with them and, yeah, just like this whole like oh, we're so rebellious, kind of thing, right. And then, yeah, they were like very much against like religion and all that stuff's lame. So, yeah, I just started like adopting all this, uh, and it would yeah affect my worldview.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I started considering myself an atheist. I'm like that makes the most sense to me, yeah, religion just kind of.
Speaker 2:There's so many things that I can't make heads or tails about it. And yeah, this whole thing about like I can't see it, like I can't see God, I can't see angels or anything like that. I just see what's around me, right, the material and that that makes the most sense, and being kind of more like scientifically minded. And then I was exposed to, uh, bill maher, who's like a very proud atheist and uh, yeah and uh, yeah, so that would influence me, uh what was the turning point for you after that?
Speaker 1:Because you were still pretty young, and I get that I think when you're young, another part of that piece is the identification with friends, right, the way we make friends by identifying with what they like, and that could be clothes, music, beliefs, so I could see that piece playing a role there too. But yeah, I'm curious, what was the turning point where you start to say you know what actually this atheist belief or label that I put on myself? It doesn't make sense actually. Um, so what was that turning point for you?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, like I said at the beginning, um, it's been a gradual process. Um, I think really I do have to. I kind of owe it to like a more intellectual, I guess, way of thinking about it, because it was less. You know a lot of people when they talk about their journey with their faith. You know their testimony. There is a lot of emotion about it.
Speaker 2:Right, Like it's like feelings, but for me it was more, yeah, intellectual. You know, like I said, I always had this philosophical way of thinking and like, how you know, because I was very scientifically minded and I accepted like, okay, the material world that makes the most sense, because I can see it, I can touch it, I can interact. But who put this all here? Right? And then, yeah, I guess the whole you know, big bang theory and all that, I was like okay, but really like it's all just a series of accidents, coincidences, and like evolution, which I think we, we touched on a bit, uh, on my podcast as well, uh, so, yeah, it was just kind of like it started to be, yeah, I guess, more ridiculous to say there is no God, you know to, because I, yeah, how can I say that? Just as much as I can't say there is a God for sure, I also can't say there's not.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, I guess it started like, yeah, inverting my way of thinking because it's like, even though, yeah, I accept that this is reality, um, but yeah, who put it here? I don't think it was all just an accident, um, and yeah, just like thinking about uh, um, I guess like there, yeah, there needs to be a higher power, uh, at work here, and so I would say I went from being atheist to being agnostic, right, which being agnostic kind of just means like you're open to it, like yeah, there might be a guy, there might not be, but not too invested. Um. So yeah, it was like, yeah, very intellectual process as far as like a specific turning point, I don't, I can't say that there's any specific moment, but yeah, it's just like a gradual process.
Speaker 1:Um, which makes sense, being so logically thinking through it, right, like as you gather more data, it's like, yeah, well, that doesn't make sense, well, maybe there's a possibility, right yeah, it's sort of becoming more ridiculous to me to say, yeah, there is no god, like there's.
Speaker 2:Just, there does seem to be a lot of evidence of, of an intelligent design, right. So, and yeah, me wanting to be right, wanting to be smart, I was like, well, no, I can't say that there is no god, because that just seems dumb to me. Um, so, yeah, then it was that. And then also the cultural thing, uh, that's a big aspect of it too, right, because like I, like I said, I've always been super into, like movies, right, entertainment. Um, and then, like I started looking at just like the stories, just just the stories, just like as if it was fiction. It's like, well, yeah, these stories in all religions start to fascinate me, right, right, actually, I always really liked Greek mythology. Specifically, I remember I had to read Edith Hamilton's Greek mythology. It's a book. I had to read it for eighth grade I think. Oh yeah, it was like over the summer, between eighth grade and ninth grade, I think which then?
Speaker 2:later on I found out that it wasn't necessary. It was just like. If you want to, here's a list of books you can read.
Speaker 1:And so I read.
Speaker 2:I read, uh, Fahrenheit 451, and then this mythology book and I remember just really liking Greek mythology. So, yeah, through this process, I just I started to look at the stories of religion. Um, and yeah, because of having this obsession with movies and entertainment and like, yeah, just viewing the stories, it's like they're so fascinating, Right. So I did start having this openness to it and I'm like, well, it'd be really bizarre, Like, were all these people making it up? Like whether or not? Like because I do feel like now you know Christianity, that is, that's the true God. But yeah, in general, it's like, well, they couldn't have all been just making it up right.
Speaker 2:There's something there. And then, yeah, being fascinated with Jordan Peterson, like I said, yeah, he really opened my eyes to, oh, there's like incredible stories in Christianity and in other religions and he would often reference I think his name is Joseph Campbell who was, yeah, he I think he was an anthropologist and just like, yeah, he would study, you know, human culture and part of that is religions.
Speaker 2:And there's actually there's a series on Netflix I forget what it's called, but yeah, it was like a series of interviews, no-transcript. That brought me back to to my faith, because I started realizing, okay, well, you know, I am, I guess, a materialist in the sense that I believe in what I can see and interact with, and, yeah, just, it started becoming more absurd to think that there was not a creator behind it. And then, yeah, this fascination with different mythologies and yeah, I guess acknowledging like there has to be some truth to it.
Speaker 2:It can't have just been made up um and yeah in my family because, uh, you know, mexicans love their ghost stories, right, and yeah, so many all of my family members have so many ghost stories, um, and then, yeah, one one uncle in particular, he's got a few ghost stories, things that happen to him, and he's a psychologist and so it's like, well, that guy, he can't be making it up because, yeah, he's like the super academic guy, he's like the head of the psychology department at this one university. So how can someone so educated, so intelligent, yeah, like just make this up? So it's just a combination of so many different things. Yeah, it's not like, because I'll hear stories about people giving their testimony. It's like, oh, you know, one day, like, yeah, I went to the bar and started talking to this christian guy and I converted right there on the spot.
Speaker 2:Or, yeah, um, I heard a story about like, uh, you know, somebody watched a movie and then they started believing and but for me it was a gradual process of being convinced, right, and, yeah, honestly, I still I I kind of struggle with it. You know, um, I will still have questions. Um, yeah, it's not like I wouldn't say the journey is over yet, right, like I still have a lot of questions and doubts.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, were you sharing more?
Speaker 2:No, no, that's it.
Speaker 1:I was going to say and your story is not uncommon for those of us who grew up in the church that's kind of typically kind of how it progresses where there comes a questioning stage where you wonder are these my beliefs or are these my parents' beliefs? And then what does it mean for me to move away from these beliefs? If I start asking all these questions, right, and then on the way back to, okay, I want to make these my beliefs. The questions then become even wanting certainty, right?
Speaker 1:yeah wanting to make sure that you have and you know everything that you can. But it's almost like getting to know a person right. As you get to know a person, you establish a foundation of trust and security within it and at some point, because you have a repeated number of situations or instances where trust has been developed, you don't think about trusting the person. You just do right Until they do something that actually hurts you or destroys the trust you know. And I think one good practice that I often encourage people to do is you know, just look back at your life and all those repeated instances when you needed God to be there. How did he show up? And you'll see that you kind of start to develop. Oh, he was there at this point. He was there at this point and this point. And now you're like well, why am I still distrusting of him? Why am I still questioning when he's? There's so much evidence of him just being present in my life?
Speaker 2:So there's something.
Speaker 1:There's something that we're looking for, and it is that fear of am I going to be abandoned? Right Is is he actually going to meet the need that I've wanted? There's no other evidence in my life with all these other people that have been in my life. They've all left. They've all been gone in some way, shape or form. Why would God do anything differently, right?
Speaker 2:So I think, that's.
Speaker 1:That's one one good good practice to um to implement just the evidences. Think that's one good practice to implement just the evidences. And that's one of the strongest things in my own faith, where I call it the Peter principle. And if you remember when Jesus was preaching and then he was going away and his disciples started leaving him Not his 12, but people who were following him right and they started to leave and he looks over at his disciples and says, will you leave me too? And then Peter kind of looks over and says, lord, you have the words of eternal life. Where else do we go?
Speaker 2:Right, I love it.
Speaker 1:It's one of those moments where you're like man, lord, you've been here all this time, present in my life, time after time, saving me from these different situations and being there even when things weren't going well where else would I go? Why would I turn away from you? And it touches me because I'm remembering all of those moments and that's what builds that trust. So now, when I grew up only knowing about the just, righteous, wrathful God, that made sense to me. It was hard. I read about the love, I read about the patience, I read about the forgiveness, but it was hard to expect because it wasn't emphasized enough. So it's almost as I got older, the way that the Lord showed me the other piece of his love, kindness and forgiveness, was a mentor, through a mentor who I would share. Something that was a struggle I was going through and I thought he was going to respond with judgment, which is what I was used to.
Speaker 2:And so I was very scared.
Speaker 1:I'm like, oh, he's going to hate me after this, not going to want to be around me or not going to want to mentor me anymore. And he's like, oh man, tell me more about that. And he was interested. I'm like that's different, it's weird, and there was repeated instances of that and it was the Lord showing me that. No, there's this other side of me that you haven't gone to know yet. You've seen it in my word. I'm going to give you a direct relationship with this person so you can really see this aspect of who I am and that was just so encouraging.
Speaker 1:So now I was able to find that balance. Of the Lord can be just righteous and wrathful when needed, but he's also loving, kind and is able to forgive. So I often share that so people can see do I have anyone in my life who shares that other aspect of God that I have been either ignoring or haven't been attuned to paying attention to?
Speaker 1:so that way when you read God's word and then you have experiences in your real life about that attribute being demonstrated, it starts to make a little bit of sense, and then a little bit more sense yeah, I think I do realize sometimes demonstrated, it starts to make a little bit of sense and then a little bit more sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think I do realize. Sometimes the issue can just be yeah me accepting it Like am I worthy of forgiveness? Am I worthy of mercy? Right, because, yeah, sometimes I'm like no, not really. I mean like, yeah, I put myself in God's shoes, and I'm like, no, like why, yeah? Why should I care about this? This brat you know, I'm this person that you know. Ricardo rejected me for so long. Why should I care about him? Right?
Speaker 2:and then yeah just in yeah and then just in general, uh, yeah, this whole idea of the wrathful god. It's like he's got good reason to be wrathful and angry, right um, you know, we, we are pretty terrible and um, yeah I think we, we deserve it.
Speaker 2:Uh, like I've heard it said, you know, um, god doesn't send you to hell, it's, it's really yourself you send yourself to hell. Um, yeah, we, we do we because a lot of, because all of our suffering in in some way, um, and yeah, just I guess, yeah, for me sometimes, yeah, the issue is, um, yeah, I can be.
Speaker 2:So I don't know bipolar in a way about that, because, yeah, on the one hand, I'm like, I'm like uh, you know, oh god, he's so angry and, and you know, wants to punish us, and then, yeah, then I'll flip around like well, yeah, I mean he should want to punish us, I mean we're so so yeah. I kind of go back and forth. I'm like I want, I want god to be forgiving and all loving. But then, yeah, some days I'm like man, yeah he just he needs to just burn this all to the ground because we're we're bad people and and we do a lot of bad things.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's kind of like um yeah, the fact that that hasn't happened is kind of one of those demonstrations of his mercy and grace, right, like we take on that mentality of, yeah, you should and he hasn't. It's like we don't perceive that as mercy and grace. We perceive it as, oh, you're being weak because you haven't commuted, right what you said.
Speaker 2:Which I think that isn't that kind of the story of Jonah, right, because like he's kind of avoiding God because God wants him to go to what's the city called like Nineveh or something like that. Yeah, and it's like, oh, go, preach, preach my word to these people, which is basically like Nineveh, you guys have been bad and God is going to punish you. And then Jonah doesn't want to do this and so he keeps trying to run away and you know he ends up in the big fish or the whale, whatever however you want to call it.
Speaker 2:But then, yeah, at the end it turns out that, jonah, he's like you know what I just I didn't want to deliver, deliver this message, because I know you're not going to follow through on it, like you're always kind of like you're, oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna wreak havoc on you guys and punish you, but you never do you forgive these people and they don't deserve to be forgiven. So sometimes I can relate to Jonah.
Speaker 2:I'm like yeah if you are um, so just and all, it's like, yeah, go punish people, right, but then yeah, I'm but yeah he's supposed to be like the most forgiving, the most tender, the most loving. So, yeah, I guess maybe that justifies it. Yeah, even though we see terrible people who deserve punishment, but still they are God's children, right, and so he even. He loves them just as much as he loves the rest of us. But it can be a tough pill to swallow, right, because I'm like, yeah, I'm not as bad as as hitler, right.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, no, that's good man, that's good um. We're down to kind of our last, uh, little section here, ricardo and um just kind of wanted to get your final thoughts as we've been having this conversation. Have you seen, is there anything in your relationship with God that has been new for you? That's been good that you're like man. This has really impacted my relationship with the Lord. Whatever that may be, I don't know what's happened in the last couple of years. Maybe something happened recently, but something that shifted your relationship with God in a positive way.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, yeah. So, as you know, I was in Mexico recently and my plan was to move there indefinitely. Oh, wow um yeah, so as I mentioned uh, yeah, I live with my mom and her husband and, um, it's good being here, but obviously it's not like the ideal. You know, I would like to have a place of my own.
Speaker 2:And then I suddenly I got this idea like, oh well, I could I could move to mexico and you know I can afford to live a lot better over there, like maybe what I have here it's not so much.
Speaker 2:But you know, in mexico I could live like a king so my idea was yeah, to move to mexico and just kind of have a change uh yeah, a change of scenery, I guess, um, and yeah, I kind of I also went with this mentality of america is so prosperous and yeah, there's like so much attention put on like wealth and stuff like that. And I want to go to mexico, where it's a bit more humble, right, this third world country, and I sold my car, I sold a lot of my belongings got rid of a lot of stuff, yeah donated like half my clothes to charity.
Speaker 2:Um yeah, I just got rid of a lot of stuff and then arrived in Mexico and realized it wasn't the right choice. You know, and this is something that I had prayed about, you know, I wanted to have proper discernment and so I would pray about it constantly, like am I making the right decision by going to Mexico?
Speaker 1:and.
Speaker 2:I really felt in my heart that I was. And yeah, people, friends, family they would try to convince me like, no, you're not doing the right thing, you know. Stay where you're at you know, it's a big change. Like I spoke with my brother about it, he's like man, are you sure you want to do that? You want to sell your car and move to Mexico, like that's a big deal. You know, maybe just go over there for like a month and test it out and come back, yeah, but I was like no I really feel it in my bones and my soul that this is the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I did I. I went there and realized it was not the right decision, because mexico is a tough place to be honestly and it is kind of what I wanted.
Speaker 2:I wanted to get rid of my comforts, um, you know, because I am catholic, uh, that's like a big part of it is like this asceticism, kind of like rejecting the material world and like suffering, kind of like. You know, there's so many monks, right, so many saints that that we hear about in the catholic church who, yeah, they, they kind of get rid of all their belongings and go live, live in a cave and just dedicate themselves to to the lord, and so I kind of had that mentality. But then, yeah, just getting over there, I realized, no, that's not my path, um, because, yeah, like I, I'm not going to become a monk.
Speaker 2:Um, I've already I just know that my place within faith is to be a lay person and, yeah, like, be faithful but live kind of like a normal life. Yeah, um, and I can't really do that in mexico. It's tough, because I want to get married, I want to have kids, um, and honestly, in mexico it's yeah, it's really tough. Um, just like, really simple things can be challenging in mexico. Um, and yeah, if you don't have great connections, great career, it's, it's really tough.
Speaker 2:In america it's a lot easier to get by, honestly, um, and yeah, just thinking about like, like, putting into context, like with my mother, right, she came from a super poor town in mexico, went through all the things that she did, like, you know, I was born in canada and then she helped me get my, my citizenship here in the us. Just all this, just for me to go back to mexico. It didn't make sense, right. And then, uh, yeah, I met up with some family members down there and, uh, you know, they put on a happy face and like, oh, it's so good to see you, we're so happy that you're in mexico. And then, you know, I kind of opened up to them like yeah actually, I think I made a mistake.
Speaker 2:I don't know if you know I'm gonna be able to to live here in Mexico. And they're like oh, thank God you realize it, because, man, we all thought you were crazy. Everybody wants to go from Mexico to America and you're being this contrarian. You want to do the opposite. You want to come from America, the land of opportunities, to Mexico, for what You're just going to suffer here. And these are people who are successful, but they're successful because they suffered so much. They're like for you to get to where we're at here in Mexico, you're gonna have to put in so much work for like decades.
Speaker 2:And you know, honestly, I'm at a point in my life, like I'm in my early 30s, and yeah, I'm thinking about, like the next generation, right, like I want to. I want to have a wife and kids, um, so, yeah, I can't really afford to do that, really, like I don't want to get married and have kids when I'm 50. So, um, yeah, I was like, okay, yeah, it doesn't make sense for me to be here, but yeah, I needed to go and see it for myself and realize, okay, all these things that I was rejecting, like these opportunities and, you know, prosperity comforts, they're actually a blessing and so I need to appreciate that really, um, and yeah, not just for me, uh, but yeah, for the next generation, right, because I want to give my kids the best life that they can have. And Mexico's, you know, it's not the best place for that. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a very poor country. There's a lot of, you know, crime and violence, and I don't want that for my kids.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, I I just, I really it was an eye-opening experience and I realized, uh, yeah, I need to appreciate what I have. Um, also, at the same time, you know, be humble and not get too caught up in. You know, ambition, I, I do.
Speaker 2:I've always had an issue with, you know, people who are overly ambitious and obsessed with wealth, which we we talked about on on my podcast, um, but, uh, yeah, so, being humble but, at the same time, yeah, wanting to, um, make a better life for myself and a better life for the next generation. So so, yeah, I would say that's a very positive thing that happened recently and making me realize that, okay, even though throughout my life, I haven't had everything that I want, but God has taken care of me, given me a lot of good opportunities, and I can't just, you know, yeah, be an ungrateful little brat about it and, yeah, I need to need to, like, take advantage of the opportunities I have. So I would say that's a very, uh, important thing that happened recently and, um, yeah, it makes me very, very grateful to god, um, for the opportunities that I do have yeah, no, that's good man, that's rude, it's real powerful, I know.
Speaker 1:Uh, yeah, when you were telling me about just being there and how long you were gonna be there, I was like was like, oh cool, taking a long little trip, but I didn't realize it was a journey, you know. But but, no, man, that's good, I'm glad you're back, glad you're still doing what you're doing, and I know you have a lot of dreams and aspirations. It seems to be a lot family oriented, which is great, you know. And yeah, man, I, I, as we continue to get to know each other, you know, connecting over text now with friends, yeah for sure, yeah, hopefully we can keep in touch and maybe do more episodes like this. But this was great man.
Speaker 1:Thank you for sharing your story. I think a lot of people will be blessed by this. Just because I don't know who listens to the podcast right, you never know who's listening and who it touches. All of a sudden, you get a message. You're like oh man, okay, well, great, you know, I'm glad the lord used that. Um. So thank you for coming on, man, and uh, we'll do it again sometime of course.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I want to keep collaborating. Thank you so much for having me on man. Thanks, brother.