God Attachment Healing
Hi everyone! Welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm your host, Sam Landa. This podcast is dedicated to Christians who want to understand why they relate to God in the way they do. I explore how our early childhood relationship with our parents--specifically with how they met or did not meet our needs--influences how we relate to ourselves, the church, and to God. Because much of the pains and struggles of life are intertwined in these three areas, I discuss with my guests how we can find healing from the pain, confusion, doubt, and anger experienced in these relationships. If you're interested in learning more about your attachment style and how to heal from the pain you’ve experienced in the relationships mentioned above, then this podcast is for you. Welcome to the show! I'm happy you're here!
God Attachment Healing
Healing Relationships: Overcoming Rejection and Unhealthy Patterns with Dr. Gary Lawrence
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Discover how childhood emotional patterns shape your relationships and spiritual connections as we welcome Dr. Gary Lawrence, the author of "Rejection Junkies," to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. Dr. Lawrence shares his transformative journey from a turbulent upbringing in a non-religious, alcoholic household to finding faith and grace in a Baptist church. His insights into breaking unhealthy attachment patterns are profound, focusing on grace over legalism and the impact of early emotional experiences on adult relationships. This episode promises to equip you with a deeper understanding of these hidden addictions and the pathway to a more fulfilling spiritual life.
Our journey into the intricacies of personal upbringing and its ripple effect on marital dynamics is both enlightening and essential. We uncover the concept of "emotional energy thieves" and the importance of unplugging from draining patterns. Through personal stories, including those of my own marriage and experiences with individuals like Sylvia, we illustrate how childhood patterns can create conflict in adult relationships. Dr. Lawrence sheds light on the parent-child dynamic present in every marriage, stressing the necessity to address underlying emotional issues to nurture a healthier bond.
Embark on a healing journey within marriage, especially those marred by past traumas. Dr. Lawrence’s practical four-step coaching process offers a roadmap to isolate and eradicate negative patterns, fostering individual healing and spiritual connection. Learn to identify root causes rather than symptoms to bring joy and peace into marital relationships. With compelling real-life anecdotes and wisdom from seminars, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone striving to overcome rejection patterns and embrace healthier attachments. Don't miss the chance to explore Dr. Lawrence's groundbreaking work further in "Rejection Junkies".
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God Attachment Healing
ABOUT ME 👇
My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I'm really excited about today's podcast. I haven't done an interview in maybe a couple of months. I know I've been focusing a lot the last couple of episodes on the different attachment styles and how they complement each other and how some are not so complementary. But today I have a very special guest, dr Gary Lawrence, and we are going to be talking about patterns and how to develop healthy patterns and how to break unhealthy patterns in these types of attachments, both in our relationship with each other and our relationship with God. And Dr Lawrence, I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Oh, sam, it's my joy and honor to be your guest today, and I certainly hope that we bring a great message to your audience, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1:You know, one of the things that, as I was reading more about your bio and some of the things that you've done, is that you always center everything back to the submission to God's word and to Christ. And I think when we talk about attachment is from what you've been sharing that there's these unhealthy patterns that we develop typically in our childhood and we carry those over into our adult lives and they can become pretty impactful in our relationships with others and our relationship with God. But, um, before we start into that, um, why don't you tell the audience a little bit about what you do, your background and maybe even your testimony?
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that. Well, uh, you know, I got saved when I was 20 and a half years old and I was raised in a very uh, non-god-involved home environment. Both of my parents were severe alcoholics and there was a lot of immorality between my parents, and so I was not raised with any understanding whatsoever of God Almighty, that there was a creator that loved me. And so I started going to a Baptist church in southern Indiana, and after the fifth Sunday of being there hearing the gospel for the first time, I went forward, accepted Christ as my Savior, and then, three months later, that's when I surrendered to preach to the ministry. Oh, wow, wow.
Speaker 2:And now here's the thing I was saved in a very legalistic Baptist church.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know legalism says perform, so you can gain acceptance Now here's the thing I was saved in a very legalistic Baptist church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know legalism says perform so you can gain acceptance. Grace says you are accepted, now you can perform. Well see, after I got saved, I heard now that you're saved, stop your smoking. I said okay, so I quit smoking. Now that you're saved, stop your drinking. Okay, so I quit drinking. Now that you're saved, stop your drinking. Okay, so I quit drinking. Now that you're saved, give up sex. And I thought whoa, whoa, now wait a minute here, okay.
Speaker 3:That's getting too personal.
Speaker 2:And so it was stop this, stop that, stop this, stop that there was nothing really preached to me about God's unwavering grace, god's acceptance of me as who I am, and how the Holy Spirit made me complete in Christ. And so, years later, of course, when I was in Bible college, that's where I met my wife, sylvia Now Sylvia, a beautiful young lady, a brown-skinned, olive-skinned brunette, beautiful eyes, brown eyes, and the instant I saw her I knew we was going to get married, and I'll never forget. I said to my roommate I said, bob, you see that beautiful brunette over there. He said yeah what about her.
Speaker 2:I said I'm going to ask her out for a date. I said, actually I'll probably end up marrying her. Well, the truth is, four months after I met her, we got married now that was 57 years ago.
Speaker 1:Okay, congrats, sir. I mean, that's always, that's a huge thing.
Speaker 2:I mean nowadays, well, we give god the credit for it 100 because here's why and I'm going to explain it to the audience by age eight, 80% of our emotional patterns are formed. By age 18, 100% of our self-images form Well. And then you go into your 20s, you go into your 30s and your 40s. You get a little older, you get more education, you learn how to make money, but those negative emotional patterns from your childhood still control you and that's why in my book, Rejection Junkies, I refer to it as the hidden addiction. See, a lot of addictions that people deal with after they get saved is something that you see outwardly, like smoking tobacco, drinking alcohol, taking drugs. But understanding the rejection and being hooked to the rejection patterns of your childhood is definitely the addiction that keeps you from being connected to the lord.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was raised in an environment where my, my value was based on my performance. Okay, stop thinking about sam. I don't know anything about your background, but by the time you were 18, uh, there was a? Uh, a data information out that by the time we were 18 years old, we've heard the word no 40,000 times, as opposed to the word yes, only 5,000 times. Now stop and think about your childhood. How many times did you hear yes, sweetheart, you can do that. Yes, darn, I think you can do that, you're capable.
Speaker 2:No, most of it is negative reinforcement our whole value is based on our performance, not who we are, and so when we get saved, we we take that same lack of relationship with our uh earthly father and mother into the relationship with our heavenly father. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a huge connection attachment-wise, and it's very interesting that you mentioned that, growing up Baptist because I grew up Southern Baptist as well and I saw the same thing about kind of you know, this legalistic approach and not really understanding what grace was, and there's different denominations that emphasize different parts, but there needs to be a balance. No, oh absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2:Um, you don't want to abuse god's grace by just going out and do whatever you want to, uh, but the bottom line is, uh, I say like this most Most many Christians have the negative self-image because they believe what other people say about them. They don't understand that they are complete in Christ, that when they got saved, the Holy Spirit of God came into them and dwells in their spirit. Now, the Holy Spirit of God is perfect. Is that right? Absolutely, yep, right, the Holy Spirit is complete. So then, then, sam, on a spiritual level, you are what?
Speaker 1:A child of God.
Speaker 2:I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1:A child of God.
Speaker 2:Okay. Is the Holy Spirit perfect? Yes, is the Holy Spirit complete? Yes, does the Holy Spirit dwell in you? It does. Then, on a spiritual level, you are what perfect yeah exactly see. You almost had a hard time saying that, didn't you?
Speaker 1:it feels weird to say that.
Speaker 2:Well, now, that's because, many years after I was saved, and in Bible college after I was married, I learned about the triunity of man. Man is a triunity we are a body, a soul and a spirit. Okay, now, on the spirit level, when we accept Christ, we are complete. The Bible says in 1 John 4, 13,. Hereby know we that we dwell in him and he in us, because he has given us of his spirit. Well, how much of his spirit did he give you, sam? All of his spirit, 100%. So then, on a spiritual level, you are completely in Christ, is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so where's the conflict, why this battle, with all the old negative habits that we've had in our background? It's in our soul. Now follow me here. Okay, our soul is comprised of three elements. Okay, our soul is our emotions. That's what we feel to be true. It's our knowledge, it's what we know to be true, our mind. Well, when what we know and how we feel are in collision, then our will, our ability to respond to life's circumstances is damaged, it's impaired. See, how many Christians do you know that are suffering from depression and from worry and from anxiety?
Speaker 2:Are there a few of them out there that you're aware of no, there's a lot.
Speaker 1:I mean, we see it all in the Psalms too. Absolutely, absolutely no, there's a lot.
Speaker 2:I mean we see it all in the Psalms too, absolutely, absolutely. That's because they don't understand their completeness in Christ and because, for example, a person gets saved Now, after the same day. Here's some sermons on serving the Lord, living for the Lord. Now, this is going to jar your grandma's preserves. I don't want to offend you I may confuse your audience, but I'm going to say your grandma's preserves. I don't want to offend you. I may confuse your audience, but I'm going to say it like this Every Christian should stop living for the Lord.
Speaker 1:Now, how's that sound?
Speaker 2:Sam, it sounds not good it's anti-Christ, isn't it? Yeah yeah, it sounds unbiblical. It sounds wrong unbiblical.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right but let me say it like this okay.
Speaker 2:Every Christian should stop living for the Lord, because frustrated Christians live for the Lord, spirit-controlled Christians. Let the Lord live through them. See, what are the fruits of the Spirit? Perspective shift Right. The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, weakness, temperance. Well see, the bottom line is we need to learn how to eliminate that conflict between what we know and what we feel, so the Spirit of God can dominate over our soul.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is that living for the Lord is actually allowing the Lord to work through you, exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay, Exactly 100% the way you said it. It's just perfect, Joe Sam. Okay, Thank you.
Speaker 1:That's actually a really good point, though I like that you framed it that way.
Speaker 2:Well so let me go back to my early years as a Christian. Okay, so I'm back in Bible college for my second year. I went to Baptist Bible College in Springfield, missouri, and I think that's where Jerry Falwell Sr went to college. And then, of course, he went to Lynchburg, virginia, and started Liberty College. But anyway, sylvia and I got married.
Speaker 2:Well, sylvia wouldn't even hold hands with me in public. Ok, there was no display of affection at all. It just simply was not part of our relationship. But see, on the other hand, I was raised in a very lascivious environment. The only time I ever saw affection was when my father would hug my mother in a sexual way. Okay, and so as a teenager, I confused affection with sexual activity.
Speaker 2:Now I married this woman who was raised in an environment where they were in church every Sunday, every Wednesday, okay, but they never hugged each other. She never heard the words I love you. They never showed emotion, they were never praised, they never celebrated birthdays, nothing was ever a celebration in her life. So she would withdraw and I'd get angry because she wouldn't talk to me. Well, see, I was angry because that's an emotional pattern that was built into me long before I became a Christian, so it was natural for me to respond with anger and anxiety. Okay, and when I began to understand the triunity of man and the conflict was not on a spiritual level but was in my soul, between my mind and my emotions, that's when I began to get free from the past.
Speaker 2:And I say it like this Sam, you can't get free from the patterns of the past until you're free from the patterns of the past, until you're free from the people of the past yeah, no, that's that's interesting, dr lawrence, because I think one of the things that's that's difficult for people to do is exactly that's to let go of people of the past.
Speaker 1:But what do you do when you're you're going to be connected to those people, be it through family or just upbringing, because there's some people you're going to continue connected to those people, be it through family or just upbringing, because there's some people that you're going to continue to interact with. It sounds like you're talking a little bit about boundaries. Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 2:Well, more than boundaries, it's unplugging those emotional energy thieves. Okay, you asked me what is an emotional energy thief?
Speaker 2:Well, just like you plug a lamp into a power socket you stay plugged into people. In the past. Okay, for an example, my wife's mother was in church every Sunday, but her mother was a very narcissistic, hostile, abusive woman. One time she beat Sylvia so bad when she was nine years old. Sylvia had to go and hide in the closet in the master bedroom because women from the church were coming over for ladies' fellowship. Now I know there's a lot of people listening to us that can identify with what I'm talking about. Okay, they're Christian people and in their hearts they really love the Lord as much as a human being can. But those emotional patterns in their early years of upbringing still control them. So, anyway, so Sylvia, she would hide from her mother by withdrawing. She would hide in the basement under the stairs to get away from her mother. Now, from ages 7 to 12, sylvia had tuberculosis. She was dying of TB. That's when her father began to sexually abuse her.
Speaker 2:Now put this together, sam. Here's this little girl being raised in this strict Baptist home. They're in church every Sunday. She's hearing sin being preached about every Sunday. Her mother is a hostile, abusive human being. The boy on Sunday, on the Lord's day, she preached about every Sunday. Her mother is a hostile, abusive human being. But, boy, on Sunday, on the Lord's day, she's a wonderful Christian.
Speaker 3:She's a wonderful child of God.
Speaker 2:Now here's this father that goes to a different church and he's sexually abusing her. How is she going to survive? Well, she's going to withdraw. She became what I call the escaper. She became what I call the escaper. I became what I call the survivor.
Speaker 2:Okay, there was a lot of physical abuse in my background, but by the time I was 16, I literally was physically fighting back with my father. So when I got saved I'll never forget I laughed about this. After I got saved, I said boy, god's got a lot of work to do with me, okay, and of course he has a lot of work to do with all of us, doesn't he? Okay? And so I guess a simple way to put it. I say it like this Sam, in every marriage there's a parent and there's a child. It has nothing to do with gender, okay, it has nothing to do with gender, it has everything to do with personality. In every marriage there's a survivor and there's an escaper.
Speaker 2:And when I began, I was a missionary to Canada and went to Winnipeg, manitoba, canada, started a church, didn't know a human being there, and just out knocking doors, inviting people to come to Sunday services. And in six months we had 170 in our congregation. In three years we built a 450-seat auditorium on five acres of land and I had a weekly television broadcast Boy. My ministry was just blossoming. God had blessed many people getting saved. But, sam, my marriage was falling apart. My wife was living in fear of me and I couldn't understand it. Why don't you talk to me? Well, why wouldn't she talk to me? When she was a child? She learned to withdraw, didn't she? Yeah, so even though she was saved, she habitually emotionally had that negative pattern of withdrawing. I had the negative pattern of getting angry and saying why don't you talk to me? Well, how can she talk to me when, literally, personality-wise, she married her mother? Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting how, when we get married, sam, we literally marry everybody in our spouse's background okay.
Speaker 2:And all their negative emotional patterns and their positive patterns come along with them. See, I tell you I can't tell you how many people over the years I've counseled and I would ask the question when did you notice that your marriage was in trouble? And this one guy said oh, dr g, I knew a month before we got married it wasn't going to work. Okay, and that's because all the rejection patterns were so obvious. But she was the dominant one, he was the fancy one, and so he went ahead to make her happy and got married, and that lasted about three years. Wow. So there we are.
Speaker 1:Sure, and what you're sharing, dr Lawrence, I mean, it is making a lot of sense no-transcript couple that says we've never had an argument in our marriage.
Speaker 2:I'll show you two liars. Okay, everybody has conflicts. Everybody brings their past into the marriage relationship with them. Everybody brings their past into the marriage relationship with them. And I had to learn how to get free from my father's hostility, I had to learn how to stop focusing on outward physical behavior patterns and start understanding my negative emotional patterns.
Speaker 1:So how did you do that?
Speaker 2:separating from your father and then learning that this new way of relating with your emotions, Well, when Sylvia was going to leave me this was up in Winnipeg, canada I promised her if you stay with me, I'm going to find the answer. If we believe, the Word of God has the answer to every problem. The answer is in the Word of God.
Speaker 2:Now what happened is Sam. I called several Christian counseling clinics and all I heard from them is well, you just need to get right with God. And then others would say you need to get closer to God. I got so sick of hearing that that is nothing more than false guilt. Can I give you two definitions that really plague a lot of Christians? Yeah, okay, the first one is false guilt. False guilt is anxiety created from a fear of rejection for a lack of performance. In other words, if I don't perform the way you want me to, then you're going to reject me. So let me say that again False guilt is anxiety created from a fear of being rejected for a lack of performance.
Speaker 2:Genuine guilt is a grieving created by the Holy Spirit over a situation. Now here's what happened. When Sylvia was going to leave me, my first response was oh, what are people in the church going to think about me? I was more concerned about my precious reputation than I was concerned about my wife's mental and emotional and spiritual needs. Well, that's false guilt. I was more worried about my reputation. Genuine guilt is a grieving created by the Holy Spirit over a situation. And when I realized what was happening, I became grievous. I became grievously stricken about my marriage relationship and our emotional needs. Okay, and so I got into the Word of God and I discovered Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15. This is the underlying problem. Okay, this is the poison in the cup. And you know, if you drink a cup of poison and wait for the other person to die, it's not going to work. So here's the cup of poison many Christians drink from and they're not even aware of it. Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15.
Speaker 2:It says looking diligently lest any person fail or miss out on the grace of God, lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you and thereby many be defiled. The root of bitterness does two things, Sam it troubles the individual and it defiles many. Okay, Now let me say that again. The root bitterness does two things it troubles the individual and defiles many.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that second part? It defiles many.
Speaker 2:Well, for an example, my father's drunkenness and anger his anger towards me began to become my emotional response. Would you say I was defiled? Yeah, Okay, that's what I mean by it.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:You can't play in the dirt without getting dirty.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can't be raised in an environment without being under the control of all the emotional upheaval that goes on in that environment. Now, for example, I counseled a lady and her husband and she said he never tells me he loves me, he never hugs me, he never kisses me, he never shows any kind of emotion at all. Well, as I took his life history, I began to understand there's two things that man lost in his childhood he lost his voice and his choice he had no voice.
Speaker 2:He could not express his emotions, he was not allowed to. His mother would say you shut up and listen to me, Okay. His dad would say you shut up and listen to me, Okay. His dad would say you be quiet. Children are to be seen, not heard. So he lost his voice and he lost his choice. He was never allowed to make a decision on his own behalf without his mother or father approving of it.
Speaker 3:So guess what?
Speaker 2:When he got married, he married his mother's personality. It happens all the time yeah, yeah, and what?
Speaker 1:so what do you tell them? Because I mean, if they come in with that and you know that already, before they even get married, um, I'm curious how you would do the pre-marital counseling oh, I do, I, I tell you, I never did much premarital counseling. Really, I mean, I feel like that would be such a huge benefit.
Speaker 2:Oh, no, not at all. No, not at all. You know why. They haven't suffered enough. Okay, what?
Speaker 3:do you mean? Well, the bottom line is, they don't see what the problem is until after they get married, okay, so is there a way to know beforehand?
Speaker 1:Pardon. Is there a way for them to know beforehand? I know you mentioned they haven't suffered enough, but Well right.
Speaker 3:Well how can I?
Speaker 2:explain it. The bottom line is you don't appreciate the surgeon's knife until he gets rid of the cancer for you. That's good, yeah, yeah. You, that's good, yeah, okay, that's the best way I can explain it. Before I got married, I didn't need premarital counseling. I knew what I was doing. God was my savior. I was his son. I had the word of God. I had the Holy Spirit in my life. I'm going to be a good husband but, unbeknownst to me, I became an abusive husband. I became a hostile husband. I became a husband that didn't listen. Okay, instead of being gentle and peaceful and patient in my marriage relationship, I was demanding. Well, I became her mother again. Okay. Now, I didn't find out about her sexual abuse until three months after we were married.
Speaker 2:I was out preaching for the weekend and I came back to our apartment. You know, I was 22 years old. I wanted to come home to my wife.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I took her shower and got in bed and snuggled up to her and hugged her and started to caress her and Sam, she literally jumped out of bed so fast she slammed her head against the wall and for the next four hours she sat there with her knees drawn up to her chest, saying you can't touch me like that. My daddy told me don't ever let another man touch me the way he did. Don't tell my daddy what you're doing to me. Another man touch me the way he did. Don't tell my daddy what you're doing to me. For four hours, Sam now, that's back when I was a young kid 22 years old.
Speaker 2:Back in those days we called that a nervous breakdown right, Okay today we call PTSD.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, see now what I began to realize as I got into the word and started understanding how bitterness defiles a person. I began to understand that, no matter who she married, he also sexually abused her husband, see, because his sexual abuse in her young life made her afraid of sex, and so that poisoned our marriage relationship on the intimate level, and so I became the victim of the second order, and so all I had to go back to we've got to unplug those emotional energy thieves. So I have a four-step process with my coaching. Okay, can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1:dr lawrence sure, yeah, I wonder you know you mentioned that, for for her you kind of became the her mother in personality wise, yeah what did she become to you?
Speaker 2:She became a zero. She was a non-entity because both of my parents were very dominant and very hostile. Okay, they were always in a power struggle. Okay, I had never known someone so passive, so quiet, so fearful, and so I just left her alone. I went ahead and lived my life without her, gotcha, if it wasn't for the ministry.
Speaker 3:I went ahead and lived my life without her.
Speaker 2:If it wasn't for the ministry, I wouldn't have had any purpose to live, and that happens in a lot of preachers' marriages. When I traveled the US raising support for our mission in Canada, I met a lot of pastors and their wives whose marriages were in dire, dire straits and, as a matter of fact, that's what led us to opening up our counseling ministry in albuquerque, new mexico. Uh, many pastors and their wives would fly to canada. We call it the caribou counseling clinic.
Speaker 1:Okay, because I built the relationship with these pastors and their wives yeah yeah, okay yeah I was just curious of what that dynamic was, because you're both searching for something and something feels familiar and I was just wondering what that was for you well, and you I love the way you just said we were both searching for something.
Speaker 2:We were. We thought marriage was going to be the ultimate experience of joy and fulfillment, but now, once you, get free from the past, you realize the real joy and fulfillment. But now, once you get free from the past, you realize the real joy and fulfillment is in your connection to the Lord, our Heavenly Father, and then you bring that joy and that love and that peace that he gives you and only he can give you that and you bring that into the marriage relationship.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like a lot of individual work that the Lord does in repairing those emotional patterns. Once that's healed, you kind of bring that into the relationship.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, Absolutely. I started to tell you I have four steps in my coaching.
Speaker 2:Number one I want to identify the underlying problem, not treat the symptom. Okay. Hostility, depression, anxiety, fear, feelings of worthlessness, a lack of self-image those are all just symptoms. I want to identify the underlying problem. As we do that, we're going to isolate the underlying problem. I spend a four-hour session with my client, taking a life history as much as I can in four hours, but I have a series of 88 questions I ask my clients and that would pretty well help me identify the negative emotional patterns that are still controlling them.
Speaker 3:So after we identify, the problem.
Speaker 2:Isolate the problem. My third goal is we're going to eliminate the problem. I put that through the process of what I call the emotional surgery and if you buy my book Rejection Junkies, you'll be able to read about it, sam, okay, definitely.
Speaker 2:The emotional surgery. It's a very painful process, but you get free from that root of bitterness. Now let me use an example of emotional bondage. I preached in Santa Fe, new Mexico, at a pastor's conference, and there was a young lady there and she was about in her late 20s and after the service was over she came up to me and she said, dr G, I don't know if you appreciate this or not, but I I may list all the words you mispronounced and I thought, okay, I said, well, I really appreciate that, thank you.
Speaker 2:And she started, uh, speaking very negatively about other preachers that she had heard. And now, remember, she just heard me preach and I mispronounced 28 words, right, so now I'm being corrected by her. So I just kind of interrupted her and I said can I ask you a question? She said, yes, absolutely. And I said what was your relationship like with your father? She said, oh, my father. He was a nasty man. He was a hateful, hostile, angry man. I grew up, I never wanted to be like him, and so I looked at her very quietly. I said well, how would you feel if I told you that you become an exact duplicate of your father? And she literally blew up she's.
Speaker 2:I'm nothing like him he's angry he's, he's vulgar he nasty, he's so demanding, he's very critical. And I said well, you don't realize this, but because of your hostile feelings towards your father, towards your constant repeating all of his weaknesses, you have developed what we call an emotional focus, and that emotional focus has literally become overwhelming in your life. You become just like your father and Sam. She literally went from anger and hostility to tears.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's powerful, dr G, that's powerful, you know. It's interesting because, obviously, with all the years of experience that you have, you're able to identify these things. Now you know, after even going through your own process and journey. You know for the audience, I think you've done a good job of helping them identify the unhealthy patterns. And what are healthy patterns? Because I think people think of healthy patterns as okay, I need to, you know, text my spouse every hour, every time, or I need to hug my children more, or I need to be. You know, I need to perform better in this other area with my job. So what are healthy patterns in your counseling or guidance?
Speaker 2:That's the fourth stage of my coaching Okay.
Speaker 2:As we identify, isolate and eliminate the problem. My fourth goal is to rebuild the relationship, and this is where I teach men how to love their wives like Christ loved the church. You know we hear so much of women. Their wives need to submit themselves unto their own husbands. Right, but the fact is, before that, the Bible says husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it. Now remember, I was the dominant personality, sylvia was the passive personality. So what was the first pattern I began to break after I got free from my bitterness? I learned how to become submissive to her needs. When the husband learned how to become submissive to her needs, when the husband learns how to be submissive to his wife's needs, that's when the marriage can become healthy.
Speaker 3:And I believe.
Speaker 2:I believe the responsibility is totally 100% on the husband's shoulders. Now, that doesn't mean that you purposely destroy marriage. Okay, we got into marriage. My dad never taught me how to love a wife. My dad never taught me how to praise a wife or how to build her up, how to be positive. Now, he did teach me how to curse a wife. He did teach me how to yell at a wife, okay, but until I learned how to stop drinking the poison of bitterness and get free from the past, I was not able to concentrate on creating the positive relationship in my marriage and dr g when you say when I stopped drinking, the poison of bitterness, what?
Speaker 1:what was the bitterness? What was the thought or reaction that you were having about that? Did you have like thoughts about your dad, like I can't believe my dad did, that's my mom. What was going on?
Speaker 2:Well, that's a great question, Sam. You know, bitterness is not a user-friendly word, right? You hear that definition of websites it's not user-friendly. Well, bitterness is not user-friendly. People don't like to say yeah, I'm bitter, you know, because bitterness is not a friendly word. Well, bitterness is so many other things and so I've learned to give it different definitions.
Speaker 2:For example, bitterness is an inward resentment. You show me someone or something you have an inward resentment towards and you still carry that resentment. I'll show you a root of bitterness. I'll show you a root of bitterness. Okay, bitterness is a wounded spirit. Let me give you an example. Our marriage really made a major turn when Sylvia and I were in Albuquerque, new Mexico, and I had even started my counseling practice then. And Sam, you know what it's like being a counselor and trying to work on your own issues. Okay, and this was very young in our counseling ministry. But anyway, I said, sylvia, I've decided I'm going to file for divorce. I'm not angry at you, I'm not going to get mad at you anymore, I'm just filing for divorce. She looked at me why, why not? Why would you do that, sylvia? I cannot live with an emotionally crippled woman. The rest of my life I will not do that to myself.
Speaker 2:And then here's what she said, but Gary, I'm not like you and I said what do you mean?
Speaker 2:you're not like me Because all you do is yell and scream and you're mad all the time. And I said I'm guilty of that, you're absolutely right, okay. Well, see, she was focusing on my emotional pattern of hostility. I was focusing on her emotional pattern of sex is not something to be enjoyed. So there was two different areas of our marriage. And I said, Celia, you're very bitter. She said I'm not bitter, I'm nothing like you. I said, honey, bitterness is not just something sour that you eat.
Speaker 2:Bitterness is an inward resentment. Bitterness is a wounded spirit, and when your father sexually abused you as a little girl, he wounded your spirit, right. And when she heard me say that, literally Sam, she burst out crying. Yeah, she just wept and wept and finally she understood that she was bitter towards her father. So there's a root of bitterness. Okay, bitterness is an anxiety. You show me someone that comes into your life, into your presence, that creates anxiety. I'll show you someone you have a root of bitterness towards. Bitterness is a sense of avoidance. You show me someone you avoid being with. I'll show you someone you're in bondage through bitterness towards. Okay.
Speaker 3:Bitterness is a sense of abandonment.
Speaker 2:You show me someone who you feel abandoned you and I'll show you someone you have a sense of abandonment. You show me someone who you feel abandoned you and I'll show you someone you have a root to bitterness towards. Now, here's the bottom line. You've got many different roots of bitterness, don't you? And when you have all these different roots of bitterness, how much control do you have over your own life? None, no, not much at all. That's why you see so many Christian people leave the church. They're in bondage to bitterness. That's why you see so many Christian people get divorced. They're in bondage to bitterness. I think you might know this, sam, but did you know the divorce rate among Christian people is higher than the divorce rate among secular people?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I have some thoughts about that. You know, like people who describe themselves or, you know, define themselves as Christian but aren't really like. It seems to be like the popular term, so I have some, some hesitancy with using that but, I mean, it's basically half, it's almost basically. You know, I think it things like 42, 44%, which is still high.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I agree with what you're saying. But there's a lot, a lot of Christian people who are saved. They're a child of God. They are already connected to God because the Holy Spirit dwells in them. Correct, yeah?
Speaker 3:That will never change.
Speaker 2:But those emotional patterns from the past still control them.
Speaker 1:And Dr G if you can, I'd love you to elaborate on this aspect. Like God gave us emotions, I think, for both of us growing up in a Baptist home or Baptist I didn't grow up in a Baptist home, no. I'm sorry, Like under that Baptist teaching when you got saved right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Right yeah, I think one of the things that are taught is that you need to change your thinking, but there's not really a lot of attention given to the emotion, and that's what we're talking about right now, like these emotional bonds, and that gave us emotions.
Speaker 2:So I think that's kind of what you're touching on. Is you know what were the purpose of the emotions? If they're creating these bonds, right, yeah. Well, as you think so, are you emotionally Okay? If you think that someone's going to hurt you emotionally, you're going to have fear. If you think that you can do it and you're going to do a great job, you have that emotion of pride, okay. It all comes back to understanding. You've got to eliminate that conflict between what you know and how you feel.
Speaker 3:For example, I know.
Speaker 2:God loves me.
Speaker 3:I don't feel like God loves me.
Speaker 2:Well, I know I'm successful. I don't feel like I'm successful. Okay, I know I can make it happen.
Speaker 2:I don't feel like I can make it happen, so as long as what you know and how you feel are in conflict, then your will, your ability to respond to last circumstances is damaged and instead of having love, joy and peace, long-suffering the fruits of the spirit, you have the fruits of the flesh, which is feelings of insecurity, feelings of inadequacy. And these are all emotions feelings of anxiety, feelings of dependency and always depending on other people, and so on, so on, so on. It's like a tsunami of emotions that control you. Yeah, that's a good way to emotions that control you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it, sir, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know when I would hold seminars, sam, I would ask this question. I had what I used to call the university of successful living and I would say how many of you, about six months after you got saved, I mean about six months after you got married how many of you looked over at that person in bed next to you and thought how did I end up in bed with this person? Okay, because many, many times and if you've counseled people, sam, you've heard this many times after they get married, about six months down the road, they say you're not the same person. I married. What happened? Okay? Married. About six months down the road, they say you're not the same person. I'm married. What happened? Okay, because we're always on our best behavior before we get married. We're always doing our best to make sure the other person's comfortable with us. Yeah, and then we get married, and then the real emotional patterns start floating to the surface and how do you, how do you guide people through that process, sir?
Speaker 1:I think everyone knows that that's what happens. They know that they're going to have maybe a hard time in the first or second year. But I mean, how do you prepare them for that? Do they just have to go through that process and learn how to face their emotions?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm so glad you said that, sam. Emotions. Oh I'm so glad you said that, sam. Yeah, yeah, everybody does not know. That's what's going to happen, okay, everybody lives in a fantasy world, what their marriage is going to be like okay, even if they acknowledge it be, even if they acknowledge it beforehand yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah, and and then, and then they're covered up with. Well, I didn't think it'd be so bad, that's true, yeah, well, I didn't think it would actually lead to this.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I thought I could put up with it as long as he, or as long as she, didn't make it any worse. Okay, it's kind of like they're taking this drug that you sniff. It's called unbelief.
Speaker 2:They want to believe the best about the person they're marrying, okay, and so there are many times that couples have come to me for coaching and I refuse to accept them because they're always blaming their mate for everything that's happening. Okay, and they're so angry and so bitter towards their mate. I know they're not ready yet, angry and so bitter towards their mate. I know they're not ready yet, they haven't suffered enough yet to say I'm ready to look in the mirror of reality and deal with my own issues.
Speaker 2:I believe it's all about heart. Every marriage and I want to say this very clearly every marriage can become a healthy, spirit-controlled marriage relationship as long as one mate is willing to give free mentally and emotionally from the past and become submissive to the leadership of the Holy Spirit. I believe that with all my heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and, dr G, I know there's going to be some people who are listening and I think from their perspective they may feel like, well, I did give 100%, I felt like I was invested and I felt like I let go as much as I could, but the other person will, and maybe they don't even place the blame on the other person, but they themselves feel like they did all they could. What do you say to those people?
Speaker 2:I say they need to look in the mirror again, find out who they're talking about.
Speaker 1:You're not looking hard enough in the mirror.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, and and I I do my best to be very kind and very patient with people?
Speaker 2:yeah, but let me give you an example uh here, a couple came to me this was many years ago and this is a perfect example and he was involved in an extramarital affair and they were in my office and he sat there and he denied it totally, and so I asked her to step out and sit in the reception area. I said I want to talk to your husband alone, and so I asked him. After she closed the door, I said I'm going to ask you a question, and when I ask you the question, I don't want you to look at the ceiling or at the wall or at the floor. I want you to look me in the eyes and answer me. You have to understand. You're not in trouble with me. I'm not mad at you. I don't care if you're having an affair. I don't care if you're having 10 affairs, because your affairs are not the issue. Tell me who you're having an affair with. He immediately looked down at the floor. I said whoa, whoa, he's supposed to look me in the eyes. And so he looked me in the eyes and he told me who it was.
Speaker 2:And it just happened. I knew who that woman was and I said okay. I said are you ready to get free from the past? And he looked at me and said well, will I have to give up the affair? I said oh no, no, no, no, I don't want you to give up the affair at all. He said are you a Christian counselor? And I said oh yeah, I'm a Christian counselor.
Speaker 2:And I said the bottom line is you worked very hard to have this affair. You've told many, many lies, you spent a lot of money covering it up. You put a lot of mental and emotional energy into having this affair. But what you have to realize is the affair is not your problem, that's just a symptom. If I can position you to get free from your past, we can break the symptom. We can eliminate this pattern once and for all. Wow See, I didn't condemn him. I didn't say change your behavior, you child. See, I never focus on a person's behavior. Behavior is what people see you do. Character is what God knows you to be. That's where you're connected with God. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Wow, that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very, very powerful, makes a lot of sense, you know, pushing people to look deeper than the surface, deeper than the behavior. Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:Wow, I'll tell you what. I'd love for you because I'd love to get some input. If you could go to my website, rejectionjunkiescom, junkiescom, and for the sake of your audience, that's rejection junkies, that's spelled j-u-n.
Speaker 1:K-i-e-s, rejection junkiescom, and you can order a copy of my book there. Absolutely no, dr g. I mean one of the things that I enjoy doing. You know, it's um. It's kind of like, you know, when you read a book or you watch a movie and you like the movie so much that you don't want to read the book because the details are going to be like oh, oh man, it's not what I thought, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:After this conversation, definitely, and I want to encourage my my audience as well, because I'm I don't just take any interview, dr G, so I really try to look at. Ok, what did they talk about? I think there was a clip, a video clip, that you had in the email and looked it up. I'm like I like this. And then there was something about your tone when we spoke over the phone. There was just something that I felt that was different and good, and I really appreciate this conversation and the fact that you've kept it focused on scripture, focused on Christ, and I think that's what our audience needs. So I really do want to thank you, dr G, and I will be getting the book. I really do want to thank you, dr G, and I will be getting the book. I promise you and I will let you know how it goes.
Speaker 2:I'll give you a review. I really appreciate that, sam. Well, there's two tools that I depend on in my coaching. Number one is the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Number two is the ministry of God's Word. Okay, the Word of God is like a sword, it's like a sharp knife. It cuts into the inner part of man, it gets into our soul, it gets into our emotions and it feeds us. And it separates the evil from the good, it separates the bitter from the sweet. And you know, the Bible says, and Jesus says himself, that sweet water and bitter water can't flow through the same fountain. Well, if you've got roots of bitterness controlling you from the past, how can you enjoy sweetness in the present relationship? And if you're not going to be free to enjoy the present, how are you going to build your future?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:And let me share this for the Savior listeners Sam, I had a stroke in January of 21. And that brought everything to a screeching halt for me. I was in Mayo Hospital for three days and I went to rehab for seven days. And I'll never forget, outside of my double bedroom window at the rehab hospital, there was a double window in the patio out there with a brick wall, and I'm laying there in bed and I'm looking at that brick wall. I said, lord, there's another wall in my life and I've got to find some way to get over it or around it, and you're going to have to help me.
Speaker 2:And so, when I got home from rehab, my wife, my son Kevin, said Dad, you need to update your book Rejection Junkies. And so that was part of my cognitive therapy, and so we updated. It became the bestseller within a week on Amazon. Then I began to do podcast interviews, and so I know I'm in the last season of my life. I just turned 80, october the 4th. Okay, so I know I'm in the last season of my life, but I read one time that President Jimmy Carter, someone asked him President Carter, why is it you spent the last three decades of your life with Humanity for Habitat or Habitat for Humanity.
Speaker 2:And I thought this was really awesome. Jimmy Carter said well, my faith demands that I do everything I can for everybody I can, any way I can, for as long as I can. And I thought, okay, lord, and I figured I've got a good five to 10 years of productivity left yet, so I'm just going to coach people and do my best to help people enjoy a quality of life that Jesus died for.
Speaker 1:I love it, sir. That's so awesome and again, I'm just so thankful that you agreed to come on the show and honestly, I'd love to have you on again if you're open to it.
Speaker 1:I feel like we go so much deeper in talking about these different aspects of our emotional backgrounds, because that is a place because I think you would agree with this that if we're doing, sometimes god uses people in our lives to help us see him differently and sometimes he does something in our lives that helps us see people around us differently and, and I think because of those emotional um bonds and patterns that we have, I think if we break some of them it could shed some light on those different relationships.
Speaker 2:I would love that, sam, I really would.
Speaker 1:I'm all about building relationships, so you can get a copy of my book and let's talk in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2:Okay, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much, dr G Sam thank you so much.
Speaker 2:It's been my honor.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and guys remember RejectionJ conversation. Oh, sam, thank you so much, it's been my honor. Absolutely, and guys remember rejection junkiescom. And he also has his book on amazon.
Speaker 2:If you're free to purchase it, I'll put the link in the bio as well by the way, sam, before we go, when they go to my website, on the home page it says are you a rejection junkie? There's a quiz they can take. If they submit it, then I will respond to them and I will give them, absolutely no cost, a free 30-minute evaluation of the results.
Speaker 3:They can find out they're a rejection junkie.
Speaker 1:Okay, awesome, love that. Okay, yeah. So I hope you guys take note of that Again. I'll put this information in the description and, guys, thank you for tuning in. Please share this with your friends and family, such an important topic and great wisdom from from dr Gary Lawrence. Thank you, sir.