Unraveling Faith, Attachment, and God's Grace w/ Cass Bellino

Ever wondered how your personal traumas can shape your spiritual journey? Join me as I sit down with Cass Bellino, the insightful host of the Biblically Speaking Podcast. Cass's unique upbringing—blending non-denominational and Russian Orthodox traditions—offers a profound understanding of God attachment. Hear about her childhood car crash and how it influenced her relationship with God, along with the transformative journey of creating a podcast that seeks to provide a deeper understanding of the scriptures through interviews with scholars and PhDs.

Moving to Hawaii was a pivotal moment for Cass, allowing her to break free from familial expectations and find the courage to follow her calling. Encouraged by prophetic messages and serendipitous encounters, she launched her podcast to create a space where people can openly explore and question their faith. This journey of vulnerability and honesty has resonated with many, offering spiritual growth without the need for formal theological education. Cass shares how every step, from overcoming fears to receiving divine signs, aligned perfectly to make the podcast a reality.

We also touch on navigating boundaries, guilt, and the struggle for authentic spiritual guidance. Cass discusses the importance of addressing real-life issues within church communities and finding supportive faith groups. She emphasizes the transformational understanding of God's boundless nature and the significance of maintaining a secure attachment to God. Through personal anecdotes and reflections, Cass illustrates how moments of divine revelation and finding a supportive community can lead to a deeper, more resilient faith. Tune in to uncover the profound connections between family dynamics, personal struggles, and the immeasurable depth of God's love.

Chapters

• 0:06 God Attachment and Trauma Healing
• 10:07 Finding Faith Through Conversations
• 21:27 Discovering God's Grace Through Struggles
• 30:14 Understanding God's Boundlessness
• 37:29 Navigating Boundaries and Guilt Complex
• 41:56 Trusting God's Guidance Through Challenges
• 50:21 Family Dynamics and Attachment Figures
• 59:56 Navigating Sin and Secure Attachment
• 1:09:35 Embracing Change Through God's Love
• 1:17:22 Podcast Exploring Faith and God

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

All right, everyone, welcome to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. I am excited about today's episode because obviously we're talking about God Attachment Healing, as always, and one of the powerful things about doing this podcast is being able to hear other people's stories. I have a very special guest, ms Cass Bellino, and she has her own podcast called this is Biblically Speaking, or the Biblically Speaking Podcast Kind of hard to say that real quickly.

Speaker 2: 0:33

Yeah it doesn't really roll up the tongue.

Speaker 1: 0:37

But yeah, she has her podcast and I'll have her share a little bit about that. But yeah, Cass, welcome to the show.

Speaker 2: 0:41

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me, Sam. This is my first feature on someone else's podcast and I'm so excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 0:47

Yes, this is so exciting, Okay cool, cool, I have the privilege of having you on. I'm excited and you know it's funny because the way that we met you had put up a post about do you have a message to share about God, something like that. And I said, well, I talk about God. I wonder. I mean, she has theologians, she has scholars on there. I don't know if this will be of interest, but I'm going to give it a shot. So I just threw it out there. We had a great conversation and I saw that you're peak interested when we were talking about God attachment and so I was like your audience also was interested and I was like, well, let's talk about God attachment. Everyone has a God attachment story. So you know, I thought of having you on, especially since you have a heart also for sharing about God's word and learning more about God's word.

Speaker 2: 1:30

Yeah, no, I really appreciate it because it's not so often that I think we like. We like to silo, you know, psychology and our own trauma and therapy and attachment theory and how that works out in our relationships, and then to have someone say like, well, you have a relationship with God. What kind of relationship is it secure? That blew my mind when we were talking on my live and I had multiple people come up to me after and just be like dude, I can't stop thinking about that. So, even though my podcast is more so focusing on what does the Bible say and how do we understand it from a 2024 perspective of you know, like I just want to talk to scholars and PhDs of like, okay, the Bible's great, I buy into that idea.

Speaker 2: 2:10

But when we discuss these verses, what was going on? You know what was going on when the original authors wrote it. What was going on at that time? Are there pieces of context that we miss? Because we just simply don't have time in that hour and a half sermon on Sundays or our Monday night Bible study, we just don't get into those details. And once we do, oh, the Bible is making a lot more sense. Oh, that's what the original meaning was I mean, we did an episode on Job. It's like, oh, why do good bad things happen to good people? No, that's not at all what Job is about. And we spent like an hour talking about what Job was actually about. And is Job a real person? Who wrote Job? So all of these things come to the surface when you spend an hour with somebody who spent decades studying specifically that topic.

Speaker 1: 2:54

Absolutely yeah, and it's been great to see I'm sure it's been encouraging for other Christians as well, as they gain in their understanding of who God is and learn more about the Bible. So I'm really appreciate you doing that podcast as well.

Speaker 2: 3:08

Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been really really giving and amazing. Just for my own Christian growth, I would say like, if we're going to go all the way back like I was raised in a Christian household, like I was, you know, raised equal parts, non denominational one Sunday and then Russian Orthodox the next Sunday and my dad was Russian Orthodox and my mom was non denominational one sunday and then russian orthodox the next sunday and my dad was russian orthodox and my mom was non-denominational and my mom was like, essentially we're gonna do every other and then when you're 18, you choose which one that you want to be a part of.

Speaker 2: 3:35

um, and I really think the russian orthodox, like the I want to say like the routine, but like the religion of it all was so beautiful and it was so structured and the fast and the feast and the different holiday and the like different calendar that they go by. We're not Russian particularly, I feel like just culturally, my family leans into our Italian side and, like I didn't know until recently, but I was Ukrainian, not Russian.

Speaker 1: 3:57

Really.

Speaker 2: 3:58

Russian type too? Of course no, but it's a beautiful way to experience God, but not speaking the language is a huge inhibitor, obviously. And then, even on my mom's side, when we were going to non-denominational, it still was like it was too touchy, feely, it wasn't, it didn't feel applicable. It felt like there's Christians. And then there's me and I and, like you know, just getting raised, my mom would always bring like oh, you did this in high school. You got caught sneaking out, you got caught having sex with your boyfriend, you got caught drinking, like all the things a kid does. My mom would always loop it back to like well, that's not like the child of God that I raised you to be. Like it was never like church on Sundays and then life Monday through Saturday.

Speaker 2: 4:39

Like my mom was integrating God in every part of everything and like praying together, and I mean this is going to be such a long story, but like leading into it. I think trauma plays a huge role in knowing God, because you know the things we experience on earth got created and when we were so young we were in like a pretty brutal car crash. And I think every family has a trauma, not like to the extent of a car crash, but like every family goes through something hard. And for us it was a car crash that essentially like immobilized my mother for like seven years, Like it was so, so long. She was in and out of surgeries but like everybody's fine, Everyone survived. But it was like my mom was in bed, Like she couldn't be a mother, and that was obviously going to put a huge weight on my older sisters. And then my brother was out of the house, he was at college and then my dad was like trying to work a job and now he has to play like the motherly role and I feel like if it wasn't for God, like it would have torn us apart. It put an immeasurable amount of strain on my parents' marriage obviously. I mean, who wouldn't now? Now I can see that, but for me it was. I felt I was the youngest and my parents and my family, out of protection, really just kind of kept me out of it, and I don't think this was like an exclusion Cassie can't handle it. I think it was like Cassie doesn't need to handle it. She's nine years old at the time. So I think that that played a role in like me being like seen in the family, and that's a totally different trauma.

Speaker 2: 6:07

But you know, having my mom be relentless in her relationship with God and like praying for us, like my mom's a prayer warrior and she would have instances of like satanic attacks, of like she told me she's like one time it was right before the accident I was sitting outside the courthouse I think she had like jury duty and somebody came up and was like you have beautiful legs. Like my mom was a skier, she was a runner, she was a swimmer and like a week before the accident, someone's like you have beautiful legs and then walked away. And then a week later my mom lost her legs. Like now she walks with a limp to this day, like she didn't lose them, but like you know what I, you know what I mean, Like she lost that ability, that like beautiful aspect that she once had, and she was like I think that was Satan, Like I think that was a taunt.

Speaker 2: 6:50

And even when she was in her hospital bed for like months at a time, she like felt. She's like one time, like I just felt a darkness come into this room and and I was so sad and I was so upset that I couldn't be a mother, Like here I am like hearing you guys come in and out of the house, but I couldn't do anything. I'm like in this room, in the house that I can't get up from, and she's like, and this darkness just like descended on me and I just opened my Bible and started reading it and it went away and like thank God for a mother. That was just like I'm not letting go of you and like my sisters were like so rebellious and she's like I'm not letting go of you guys. And so I think, being raised in a household where, like Christianity was its core and it wasn't just a Sunday thing, it was like who we were. I felt like I was growing up, but like not at the pace that I needed to, and I would say like until 22,.

Speaker 2: 7:40

I was still this like lukewarm Christian. That was like I feel like I should, but I don't want to. I love my sin. I love sneaking out with my boyfriend Like I had no, I had no need to like really be a good Christian. But I was also petrified of God, like absolutely terrified. But there was this like he's not really cool and being Christian is kind of cringy and that's not who I am Like.

Speaker 2: 8:04

I had this view of Christianhood and maybe that was just like what I was exposed to, but I'm like I don't want that, like whatever that is. That version of that just doesn't sit well with me. It's it seems fake and it seems forced and it seems uninformed. I'm going to be honest. But I remember being 22 and I lived in Thailand at the time and I was friends with a really Christian woman and she was working on like human trafficking and she was going to church with me and I just was remembering like hey, it's about time I grew up in my faith, like I need to like start taking it seriously. But like where do I start? And I'll never forget this we were like eating at my favorite place ever.

Speaker 2: 8:40

If you're ever in Bangkok go to Itai. It's like at the bottom of the mall and it's awesome, and we were joking about how cool the Bible is and I was like, dang, this is such a good conversation. Like why isn't this what church is like? Or I wish there was like a podcast where, like you had a funny person and a really smart person and it was just like factually informative rather than like a feel good sermon of like isn't God great? And this is the message out of the verse. But like this is who John is and how can we understand John and this is how old he was. And if he, if John, was alive today, this is what job he would have. Like I want those facts. And I've always been like obstinate and reading the Bible because it felt like every time I opened it I was like what the heck's going on? Like it truly was like a different language. So it's like I just feel like I'm doing this because I have to, not because I want to, and that doesn't feel good either.

Speaker 1: 9:33

Like in your faith, but you wanted to understand it.

Speaker 2: 9:35

I was constantly praying God, I want to want you. I see people on fire for you and I feel like their lives are good. But like, if I'm gonna be honest, I love my sin more. But like god, like I want to want you put me on fire for you, and I just like prayed that I want to say for years, I want to say, like 18 to 22. I was like dude, I want to want you but I don't.

Speaker 2: 9:56

And I think, and I don't know what, gave me the courage to be able to be like god, I don't want you. It's like that's a pretty terrifying thing to say to your creator, but I think it paid off. And I would say, when I moved to Hawaii, I was finally like isolated enough from my family, and my family is really smart. They're so wise and they want what's best for me. But sometimes, having people in your life that want what's best for you, they put ideas like well, cassie, if you go, know, then you're on the internet, and what if that comes back to bite you? And what if, like, I don't, my family only wants to protect me, but I think that sometimes that would have like kept me back. So I think now that I was isolated in Hawaii. Um, I finally was able to be like this is what I need to do. I mean, I have been looking for a podcast like this for five years, it feels like, and now I haven't found it. So someone's like sounds like it's your job, it sounds like God wants you to do it and I was like no, like the internet is forever, like the internet is a scary place. I don't think I could handle like if there was bullying. I don't think I can handle it. Like it's been a learning process. But I feel like, you know, had I not been isolated, had I not met the people I met out here, that like really encouraged me.

Speaker 2: 11:10

I was like doing worship at my church out here at the time and this woman like pulled me aside and like very prophetic to tourists visiting the city and they were like Cassian, like I don't know you, but God clearly has isolated you from your family for a purpose and you're up here singing. You have a voice and God wants you to use it and I think at the time I was like I'll be a singer, but I think it's like evolved obviously into like using my voice on a podcast, but once I, you know, I was like really debating. I was like I think I got to do the podcast. I don't know the first thing about editing. I don't have anything software no one in my life podcast, it's not even like I have a network.

Speaker 2: 11:48

Right when I was like, okay, if I don't do it, someone else will, and God's put this on my heart for five years, so I'm just going to go for it and if no one listens, that's okay. If no one listens, at least they did it. You know, and I talked to a lot of really great people and they're like it sounds like this is for you, like maybe God is just trying to reach you to have these conversations. It doesn't even matter if it blows up, and so I I still feel that way. I mean, at the end of the day, I do think that I'm talking about God significantly more than I ever have in my life, which is such a gift. I mean it's just good to be like isn't this cool? Like I learned this this week and a lot of my friends aren't Christian, so like they're getting exposure, whether they like it or not. But they're also supportive people. So even if they don't fully buy into it, they love me as a person and they're willing to hear it, so at least they're getting that exposure. Who knows? I think this is part of a bigger thing.

Speaker 2: 12:36

But once I like decided, I was like, ok, I'm going to do it. I don't know how, but I'm going to do it. Like so, so many weird things happened that like made it fall into place. Like um, I was dating a guy at the time and he does like tours here that take people into like the hawaiian mountains and all these things, and he was like bragging about, like oh, my girlfriend just started this podcast and the guys he was repelling were like, oh, we're like theologians and scholars, like we have tons of friends that would love to go on that podcast. Like out of nowhere, I suddenly had like four people to interview when, like the week before, I had zero. And then I was like, okay, maybe, like I'm going to do this Cause now. I like now I got to figure out a podcasting software and I sat next to a pastor on a plane and I was like God, I know that you're doing this.

Speaker 1: 13:21

So I could talk to him, but this is weird, I'm not going to talk to this pastor.

Speaker 2: 13:24

He's with his family on vacation. If I'm supposed to talk to this pastor, he has to come up to me, which is like he's not going to do that. He's on vacation, like he doesn't know me. Sure enough, tapped me on the shoulder like right when the plane landed and was like hey, by the way, like this was actually an answer to prayer, so now, so that's how the podcast came to be, and this was a year ago. Yeah, this was October.

Speaker 1: 13:49

So just October, so it's only been 10, nine months maybe.

Speaker 2: 13:55

Yeah, I would say, like right around this time last year I was like, okay, I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it. I started researching podcasting but the first episode didn't launch until October. I probably like did a couple episodes before I fully launched because I wasn't sure how to do it. But it blew up in January and I think I like very quickly realized that a lot of people have been craving the same thing I've been craving of, like a vulnerable space to admit that I'm Christian and I still don't understand my faith Cause, like I love, love church, but like I'm going to be honest, I understand like maybe 40 percent, and to be able to like sit down with someone and say, like I want to know I'm not willing to go to seminary because, like, time and money is a real thing.

Speaker 1: 14:37

But you know, and.

Speaker 2: 14:38

I the more people I spoke to, like, I think, when I met with Hugh Ross, which was also a crazy situation, like Dr Hugh Ross is a astrophysicist, who he has like a famous video on the internet that I saw, and it was like I started at the book of Genesis and by the time I got to revelations I couldn't find one contradiction, and so I was converted and I was like I got to interview this guy I have no idea who he is, I don't even know his name and then I like tracked down his website and he was like speaking at a church on Kauai the next weekend. So I was like well that's perfect.

Speaker 2: 15:09

I'm going to Kauai next weekend. I'm just going to ambush him and sure enough I like showed up to this church in Kauai and I walked up to him and I was like hey, dr Ross, um, would love to like interview you on my podcast. I had like a whole spiel and in the first sentence he's like okay, here's my card.

Speaker 1: 15:30

It's crazy how willing people are like to do it Like. I mean, they know that they're a source of information and I think they just want to be asked. So once you ask that question, it's just like yeah, sure, you know 100%, and I think that's what I realized.

Speaker 2: 15:39

Sam is like these guys have spent decades learning about God, but now they are within a different generation, so now, how do we share that knowledge? So I come on and I'm like, let's start with the ABCs. Like I know nothing and that's okay. Like I'm slowly learning but like nowhere near their knowledge. So let me like ask the dumb questions, because I'm sure someone else had them and for sure you get the comments of like how did you not know that? As a Christian, it's like, bring me one Christian that knows everything. I would love to interview them.

Speaker 1: 16:08

Yeah, well, better to be in your space where you're asking the questions, as opposed to those who grew up in the church and think they know the answers. But they don't really know the answers because we're never pressed on them, right? And that speaks back into those of us who grew up in the church, because we've been exposed to it so much we almost lose the value or the desire for it because we've just been exposed to it and we think that that's enough. And I forget that there's that personal relationship that we start to understand as we get older. It's like, wow, this is more than just head knowledge stuff. This is also about heart knowledge, heart connection with God.

Speaker 1: 16:44

And yeah, it's very easy for people who grew up in the church to think that they know more than they actually do. And vice versa, those who come to know the Lord later on, they're just ready to just ask all the questions. So they go through discipleship and so on. So it's really cool to see that you know. And in a church that's what it should be. You have the older believers, the mature believers who are discipling the younger believers, and then that continues on right as you mature, you continue to disciple and so on. So I think it's a good illustration of that discipleship your podcast, as you're talking to these people who know about scripture, like it's a good way. Even though they're not doing day-to-day life, they're still teaching, kind of like it was back, you know, in the Old Testament, just teaching and we're picking up all those concepts. So it's really cool, really cool to see.

Speaker 2: 17:35

I wouldn't say that I'm teaching anybody. I think that is like that holds a weight of responsibility that I am fortunate enough not to bear because I interview the smart people that do the teaching. But I do agree that like discipleship doesn't have to come from a teacher, but everyday conversations about God, like if we are to seek him in everything, then we shouldn't just talk about God at church or like at the brunch after church or like Christian uh, sorry, Christmas or Easter. But I've been so fortunate to like have a family that was like taking their Christianity seriously and encouraging me and I really have to give kudos like obviously my mom, but my sister, Maggie, who I've interviewed on the live a couple of times, she was like there for me, willing to talk about God and I think as like a child in high school, I couldn't like maybe college I couldn't talk about God without crying because I felt so unworthy of his love, Like I was not taking my faith seriously at all. So for me to be like, yeah, I love God, Like I couldn't, even I didn't feel like I deserved to say that because like I didn't love him Look at my actions. So I'm like so ashamed and talking about God to my sister which, like I think I'm just fortunate that you have people that you can have these hard conversations with and they see you and they encourage you. And it's outside of church, it's everyday access, and that's what I wanted to create with the podcast is like let's just talk about God all the time, Like it's not a church sermon. Let's just like wonder about God all the time. Let's just like consider the things that we don't understand all the time, Even if it's not like. I think loving God is just thinking about him and talking about him and learning about him and through other people's experiences and testimonies. I did such an amazing testimony last week with Paige and it like has shook me to my core. So like those types of talks.

Speaker 2: 19:21

But when I spoke to my sister like dude, I can't even talk about God, I'm so unworthy she was like Cass, like do you understand how much God loves you? Like just the fact that you care, that, whether or not he cares, is enough. And, Cass, if it's not giving you peace, then it's not from God. And I think that really released me from like oh gosh, I'm like at rock bottom. God's just got nothing but wrath for me. She's like no, he wants to love you.

Speaker 2: 19:52

It like I mean talk about attachment, Like that is like a fatherly love, and I know an earthly fatherly love. I have an amazing father and but I think to like be so scared of God and then to know that like love, my gosh, it's gonna make me cry If I just think about it too much, much. But I think that like really released me in my like lacking, when I was like at the the wrong spectrum of my christianity. It's like, well, this god just wants to love you. Like he will hold you accountable, but like the love is there and that's not to like well, he'll condone the sinning because he loves you so much. Like I think the love is going to be first before he like really puts his wrath on you because he loves you so much. Like I think the love is going to be first before he like really puts his wrath on you because he loves you so much. I mean, I don't know it, just and he's patient, so patient, very patient.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Yeah, I'm thinking about how you described your parents and how they themselves viewed God, how they viewed their relationship with God, and how they both had kind of different denominational backgrounds and that you guys, as you got older, you had to kind of choose, in a sense. And it sounds like and I don't know what it's like in the non-denominational church, but did the churches? What were the churches teaching? Was there something that they were teaching about Jesus, about God, that didn't align with scripture or that did align with scripture? So, for example, one of the you know, I grew up Southern Baptist, so the typical thing that's associated to Southern Baptist is that, oh, it's fire and brimstone all the time, which I think for the most of the part it was, but there was also a lot of solid doctrine that was taught, a lot of Christianian living, so all those things were taught.

Speaker 1: 21:27

But I I remember going through my teenage years and feeling a lot of shame and guilt, kind of like the same experience that you had, where I just questioned every single thing that I did, even if it was not that bad, because that was kind of like the limit. It's not that bad, but it's still bad and I feel that right. So there's always this constant shame and guilt, but I never really understood God's grace, his love, his patience, until I came to graduate school. So I'm curious for you what were the teachings that you were hearing from church? Because it sounds like your parents were both really good models of Jesus' love towards you.

Speaker 2: 22:12

Can you give some insight on what you were listening or hearing at the churches? Yeah, I think that's a good question. I mean nothing too significant, I mean Southern Baptist, whoo, but I think that the non-denominational church like think Hillsong, like think, like amazing worship, and then like we pull, you know, in the book of print, like let's go into first Corinthians, and then they talk about the story that you've probably heard a thousand times. You know, on Easter, it's around, like Pentecost and our Christian, I mean Christmas it's around, you know, the birth of Jesus. Like we keep hearing the same stories and I think I just kind of got jaded to church where I'm like I just feel like we're like the first 2% of the Bible is being discussed over and over again, but none of us, none of us is like we're not getting into the grit of like the old Testament and like the dirty stuff of the Bible, Like the Bible is violent, it is wrathful and vengeful and we weren't touching on that, and so I think I just got like that's what you meant by mushy.

Speaker 1: 23:02

Mushy or too soft.

Speaker 2: 23:06

I was like vanilla, to a point where I was like I'm not being recognized for the horrible person that I am, because at this point I'm going to church and like, for I just felt like dude, I don't think these people can handle my sin, because everyone seems so like, yep, we are totally good and we totally accept it and everything is fine. I'm like I have dirt, like I have dirt and I'm struggling. So where do I put that? Because what you guys are selling me for Christianity does not fit where I'm at. I do not want, because it's unrealistic, it doesn't feed into who I am and what I'm struggling with. I need someone to like really meet me at my level and it felt like and this like could be geographically based.

Speaker 2: 23:41

I was raised in Ohio, so maybe it was that church, you know, maybe it was just like me not paying attention in a church, like I don't know where the flaw was here, but my perception at that time in my life was just like I just don't even feel seen. I feel like they're not really going deep enough. I mean, russian Orthodox is its own animal. You can't like you either take it or you leave it and for it to be like in a different language, there's only so much you can take. But like, going to confession was terrifying, highly recommend it. It's so humbling and I think there's, just, like you know, the language barrier. Like you, just you go in through the motions. It feels like so it's a little hard to connect to. Now that I'm older I'm like so much appreciation for it, but with the non-denominational it it did feel, yeah, I would say, unrealistic and unauthentic and what I really needed was someone to explain it to me thoroughly and to also like recognize my struggle.

Speaker 2: 24:33

Without that space of like hey, I got to talk about like the sex that I'm having in high school. Like where do I put that? Because it seems like if I bring it up, I'm not going to have friends or I'm going to be like that girl. Because it seems like if I bring it up, I'm not going to have friends or I'm going to be like that girl and so like if those are the struggles that people are having at that time and they can't find a place to put it, it's really hard to like have faith in a God when, like he can't show up Right or even be encouraged. And I think I mean we talk about sex on one of the lives with Maggie and she was just saying like listen, god made sex and he made it in the way that it should exist in marriage for a reason, but people still struggle with it.

Speaker 2: 25:10

Yet we shy away from it because it is, you know, the topic about sex. But why can't we say like I understand you're struggling and recognize it and I don't even have the answers because we're human? Why can't church be surrounding around these very realistic issues of like, addiction and sex and these sins that everyone struggles with? But we shy away from and I think part of that was in my household Like my mom had a very zero tolerance for like she wanted us to be, you know, children that really honored God and honored ourselves. And when we become human and fall short, where can I admit that without you know being misunderstood or feeling like, ah, I'm just not good enough, versus like no, I understand why you did it and it sucks that you did, but this is how we get through it, like in no way condoning it. But do you know what?

Speaker 1: 25:58

I mean.

Speaker 2: 25:59

Like being more so recognized for your faults. I just felt like the churches I went to weren't recognizing me. And then even in Bangkok, when I was there, like going through this, like revolution of like this is what I need If I'm going to grow in my faith. Where can I find it? I went to my church at the time amazing church ran by a Swedish couple and I was like hey, can you explain this to me? Like again, it was just a church with the sermon and like the worship. I was like I need like more. Can we do more at church? I thought maybe she could take that feedback. Who was I?

Speaker 1: 26:27

Who was I?

Speaker 2: 26:27

telling this poor woman how to run her church, and she was like, yeah, I think you should go to seminary Cass. Like it sounds like you want more, which is on me. That is a hundred percent up to me to do more, and I wasn't willing to do it. I was being very selfish and demanding and maybe I still am with the podcast, but I think it served a purpose because it met me where I was at and people were willing to share their knowledge with me. I think if people were like absolutely Like I've done this for decades and you watch free information, but that's not like people have been so gracious, gracious and generous with their time I mean full transparency.

Speaker 2: 27:00

Like I didn't know what I was getting into with this podcast and every guest has come on for free, and like I feel like yep like at the end I'm like thank you for your time, your knowledge and not charging me like I don't know if I'm about to get like a venmo request after this, but I didn't even like these people sell at stadiums, you know, like they should absolutely be charging and they're giving it away for free. They're're amazing. So, yeah, it's just been. Yeah, I don't know if that answered your question.

Speaker 1: 27:28

No, no, yeah, it did. You know. When we're talking about church because I think one of the things that I've encountered a lot, I mean we're talking about God, attachment, healing, and the healing part comes because either teaching at church has been either not correct, or it's been hurtful or harmful, but like significantly so, or bad modeling by parents. So typically it's parents first. They're the ones who kind of set the stage for how someone's going to relate to God. So, starting in infancy, moving to, you know, young childhood, whatever model parents have established, whether it be gentle, kind, attentive, caring it's going to be easier for that child who grows up in that home to see God as gentle, kind, attentive and caring. For the ones who have more maybe harsh, judgmental, disciplinarian type of parents, they're going to see God through that lens, right? So sometimes we get those implicit messages through our parents, sometimes through church, right? So sometimes we get those implicit messages through our parents, sometimes through church, right. So I was just curious about what that experience was for you, because if the church communicated that God is more of a judge than he is patient and gracious, then it would make sense why everything seems like oh no, you know, no one's going to accept me. I can't share my struggles with anyone here because if not, they're, you know, maybe it's going to create distance between me and God and so on, but that's not how God operates. Now. God is patient and he's kind and he's loving, but he's also just and right. So it's finding the balance between those two things.

Speaker 1: 28:57

And I discovered that when I came to graduate school, because I encountered so many people who just had a different background than I did. You know, I was very doctrine based, and this is the way that it is. But as I started to interact with more people, I was like, wait, there's like some nuance here that I'm not aware of because I haven't interacted with as many people. And especially when you work in counseling, you're seeing a lot of people's brokenness, and sometimes it was through the church or through their parents. So it creates this distorted view of who God is. So, because of the upbringing that you had with your parents, it seems like they were very loving, caring and attentive. It sounds like maybe, as you got older, that's kind of the way that she viewed God. Would that be a fair assessment, or what would you add to that?

Speaker 2: 29:47

How my parents viewed God, or how I viewed God now. Yeah, I would say um, yeah, I would say like younger, I was absolutely terrified of my mom because she was like if you're sneaking out, god will reveal it to me. And I'm like oh no.

Speaker 1: 30:01

I'm sneaking out.

Speaker 2: 30:03

So I was terrified of my mom, terrified of God, like I just felt like they were both kind of out to get me, but I was also like doing horrible things. So good thing they did, it was a really great thing that they caught me. But I think the like going through this process, I want to say like as I grow up, but like truly, in the last nine months, all of these revelations have like come to the surface of, like how expansive God is and how I've had 26 hours of conversation now.

Speaker 2: 30:30

And like in no way have scratched the surface. Like God is, his depths are immeasurable and I think I have like been able to like I feel like one of my guests, justin Gerhardt. He's like the life you live should not make sense if God doesn't exist, like the amount of trust you put in God. It should be ridiculous what your life looks like If God doesn't like the amount of trust fall that you're expecting him to catch you on. If God doesn't, I guess you should be screwed. But God does exist and you're putting his trust in him, so you'll be fine. But like that's how much we should trust God with. And I think before I'd be like a control freak, needing to have total control on like what my future looks like, what my relationships look like, how much money I make, all of those things I need to handle, or else it won't get handled. And I think that's just. I don't know the way I was raised, I guess, but the deeper I get into this faith journey is like God does not have bounds and in order for us to even um try to understand him, we need him to give us that understanding. Anything that we have is because of God, the skin that we have.

Speaker 2: 31:36

When I did the testimony with Rabbi Michael Lepoff he was talking about, you know he went through like a moment of experiencing God and he looked at himself in the mirror and like in this moment, he's like my skin was falling off, like like there was a hole in his face and his skin turned black. It was this like crazy moment of experiencing God, like it wasn't actually happening, but he saw it. He's like, without God, I don't have skin, like I don't have anything put together and I didn't um another live. I'm slipping my mind, oh my gosh. But she was talking about praying and how to pray and, um, she was just saying, like I don't know how to pray unless God teaches me, so like I have to pray to learn how to pray.

Speaker 2: 32:19

So these experiences that are shaping is like God is truly boundless and the ways that he shows up is something that we will never be able to fathom. And even if we thought we could predict God, even if we thought we could predict how the end of the world is going to happen, the one consistent thing about God is that he will always surpass our expectations. I mean, that's how he arrived to the Israelites is they were, you know, polytheistic. You had to make sacrifices for the gods to be able to live, and if you don't make sacrifices, your gods will be angry. And now we have this monotheistic God that comes down and is like I've got everything that you need, so you're going to have to come to me for your needs. I don't need you to provide for my needs and that was mind blowing. And then Jesus shows up in the embodiment of God and they're like I can't hit. Like everything God does disrupts everything that we can ever expect.

Speaker 2: 33:04

So I think at this point I've gone from like oh, I should believe in God, to like believing in God is great. To like Jesus take the way. Like at this point, like it's just him. Like I am just grateful to have breath in this very moment.

Speaker 2: 33:18

Like I went from like planning my life out to years to like I will see what happens in the next hour. I gotta take life one hour at a time, because that's more than I actually have. Like I've got the next second, but I'm gonna start talking because God's can take's taken away in a minute. Like everything I have is from God, the. Like the moment that we have right now, the, the ability for me to like breathe right now, the skin on my face like not to mention the job and the house and the health and the thing like the things that we're like. Oh yeah, thanks God for happiness. It's like no, everything that we have is from God and he allows it to happen and if he doesn't, then it will be gone. And this is so much more like minute than just like the good things that happen or the bad things that happen. But I think that has truly been like the biggest learned lesson of like God is everything he is. He's not just like the religion.

Speaker 2: 34:08

On Sunday, and where our soul goes when we die. He is ever living right now, and I think that's what they mean, like the living God. That's now what it's become to me, and like every minute God is in it or else we don't have that.

Speaker 1: 34:21

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. You know, as you're sharing that like, it sounds so freeing the way that you're expressing that belief, like the belief that I don't have anything, god is in control of everything, he's given me everything Like it's freeing because we put this pressure on ourselves to obtain those things. Again, this goes back to that aspect of attachment of wanting security, of wanting to have our needs met. And where do we seek that security and where do we seek to have our needs met and these other things that have nothing to do with God or have very little to do with God. Right, needs met and these other things that have nothing to do with God or have very little to do with God, right.

Speaker 1: 34:54

There's a really interesting concept in the attachment space about spirituality versus religiosity, and spirituality is how people view the emotional aspect of their relationship with God. How do I feel when I think about God? Religiosity has to do with what I do for God, so going to church, reading my Bible, praying and so on, and these are ways in which people want to connect with God and we forget that. You know you brought up this point about. I think it starts with the very first part of understanding that everything that we have starts with God, our parents where we grew up, our cultural background, all of these things that we had no control over. Those are all given to us by God for a purpose, for a reason.

Speaker 2: 35:40

I agree. I feel like it's that realization that, oh, I didn't go to church this week so I didn't get God. It's like, no, you have God right now, it's not just God at church Everything. I think it's right. What do we go seek God in is now like well, God's already in everything. You going to church was a great encouragement and you should keep doing it, but that wasn't where God was that you had to go get. He's always here, he's everywhere.

Speaker 1: 36:01

Right and the importance of even that is the community of believers right? Because God shows himself a lot through the body of Christ, Because God shows himself a lot through the body of Christ so that church attends, because I think even Tim and I did an episode on this is it a sin to not go to church? And we talked about the importance of Christian community, how much it's emphasized in the New Testament, and so we explore more there. It's not really part of our topic necessarily today, but we discuss that topic and the importance of it and what that says to us about Jesus, about God, about community and so on.

Speaker 1: 36:38

But, Cass, I'm curious, as we've kind of, you know, explored a lot of your childhood and your upbringing, were there any explicit things that your parents told you about God, about Jesus? So, for example, something like you know, it sounds like your sister was a pretty critical role. So she, you know, you don't know how much Jesus loves you, he cares about you, he wants to hear your struggles. But from your parents, did you hear anything explicitly from them? Like you know, God is a judge or he's going to judge you for all the things that you did wrong and so on.

Speaker 2: 37:11

What were some explicit messages that you heard from either mom or dad yeah, it's tough because from a sister there's more of a peer, there's that understanding, there's a vulnerability of like maggie, I'm struggling with this and she's like that's okay, god still loves you, god wants to love you with a parent dynamic. And at the times that I struggling, I was so young, being able to be like mom, I want to have sex with my boyfriend and like I'm trying to be authentic and like you have me, have you meet me where I'm at, the parent doesn't want to have that conversation. And that's not to say my parents were bad. I think they were just like unwilling to lower their standard, which I'm so glad that they didn't.

Speaker 2: 37:51

But as a child, in that mentality of not being seen or recognized for having sinful but very human thoughts, that definitely gave me like a guilt complex of like um, I, you know, if I do something wrong, I'm not going to be like validated, like oh, that was human and it's okay, there's forgiveness and grace. It was like you'll, that's what happens when you sin. What did you think was going to happen? And it like puts so much weight on the soul and it makes you like I mean I've, yeah, I don't know it would. It's hard.

Speaker 1: 38:29

That's a good point, though, because you know, this is, this is the struggle I think that, whether it be parents or us as children, encounter as we get older.

Speaker 1: 38:37

Because you said, I'm grateful that they held the standard and it made me realize that there was a boundary or something that I was, that I was not meeting or I was crossing Right. But then, on the flip side, there's the other side, where some people would say their parents let them do everything and they regret that. They said I wish they would have given me more boundaries, right? So it's trying to find that sweet spot between having boundaries and our relation with God, and also the other side, which is they have nothing, so they do whatever they want and they don't feel any guilt. I mean, there's some people who will do sin and they don't feel any remorse and guilt, there's no conviction of the Holy Spirit, but still they'll say I'm a Christian. So it's always finding that middle ground and, as you're sharing, yeah, I'm wondering what would you think would have been different had they taken a more listening approach, like really tuning into you and hearing you out Like Cass, I hear you, I know that it's tough Like what do you think would have changed? I'm curious.

Speaker 2: 39:40

Yeah, I think it's taken a long time to feel the love that God has for me and like truly the value that he has on like who I am to him. I think because of this like oppression almost, and this like need to do what I want and lack of conviction, absolutely Like as a child, like I felt bad but not bad enough Apparently, I think there is that trauma of like I absolutely had a insecure attachment, anxious attachment, very anxious attachment, and like that absolutely manifested in my relationships with men, of like tolerating things and dealing with like soul ties that absolutely weighed me down.

Speaker 2: 40:20

And I think that if I was able to have, you know and I saw this in other friendships of like, I can talk about sex with my mom and she tells me like all the risks that are associated with it and I honestly just don't want to do it anymore I think I would have been able to feel empowered enough and like, seen as valued in that way of like well, I don't have anything to prove, I already know Cause, like my mother has, like, validated or whatever.

Speaker 2: 40:42

I just and who knows, I could be wrong but I do feel like that anxious attachment and that like feeling of like. Am I good enough and now I need to act on it to see and prove? Am I good enough that made me stay longer in relationships that were clearly leading me down a dark road, that were clearly weighing me down and just like breaking me down? I mean, the trauma got me to very beautiful relationships now and, like you know, you make your way to that point where you're like oh yeah, I am very valuable and there are things I will never tolerate again, but I wish it could happen sooner.

Speaker 1: 41:14

Sure, absolutely, and it's interesting too to see how all that has shaped us into the people that we are today. Had that not had happened, would I be the same person that I was before, that I am today and we don't know. We don't know what would have changed. We just know what did happen and how that shaped our view of God and of our parents at the present moment. So it sounds like there was no specifically anything explicit other than, hey, if you sin, there's going to be a consequence to that right, kind of like you reap what you sow, type of you reap what you sow.

Speaker 2: 41:48

Kind of like shame complex, but like my family like over talks about their trauma. So now we've like gotten through that. I think like as a child, you're always going to like make mistakes, but I think once I started really searching for God and being like God, I want to want you. I don't know what's going on, but I know that this is the track I'm supposed to be on, kind of like absolute blind faith, of like I haven't even learned anything new, but I just absolutely want to know you. Like through a breakup, God revealed himself to me and like gave me a vision and that's like probably one of the most like cornerstone moments of my faith where I'm like, oh, the power is real.

Speaker 1: 42:23

Like it wasn't even a big vision.

Speaker 2: 42:24

Like it was like it was one of those things where I'm like that's what's happening, that's why this relationship isn't good for me or meant for me. It was like a total vision of like being unequally yoked to my partner at the time and I told him about it and he wasn't even like that Christian and he's like yeah, that is a hundred percent what's happening and I think it was just like God wanted me to know.

Speaker 1: 42:42

Wait, he said that.

Speaker 2: 42:44

Like I told my partner that I was like breaking up with. I was like, hey, I feel like this is our problem. Is this vision that God gave me of being unequally yoked and we're always going to be dragging each other down and we're just not what's meant for each other. And the guy was like, yeah, I think that's what's going on here. I was like, okay, so we broke up, but I think it was like, oh, god actually wanted me to know something like who am I that like God, let me in on his plan for me and let me know. Like hey, by the way, this is why I'm very I'm breaking you up. This is why he's not your husband.

Speaker 2: 43:17

And I think, just like, having a little bit of truth, a little bit of like God's wisdom revealed to you is always going to be shaking and I would say that's one of like the bigger moments. But I think once you kind of open yourself up to like there are no consequences I mean what? There are no coincidences, and God wants to talk to you and you know we all fall off. You have weeks where you're like man, I'm on fire for God. I'm listening to worship music all day. To like man, all I've listened to all week was Meg the Stallion.

Speaker 2: 43:48

You just like have those weeks on and have those weeks off, and getting back into the groove of it and like, okay, god, you're right, everything is from you. What am I doing? Why am I listening to this music? Why am I tolerating these things? Or slipping into gossiping? I really struggle with that. His grace is unbounding and he just always comes back and like wants to put you back on that and once you open yourself, like I want to receive that, I want to make decisions that draw me closer to you. There are no coincidences. God constantly reveals himself and I think I like posted a video the other day and like it's always dumb. It's always like something that like culturally, isn't like God appeared to me in a dream. It's always like, well, I didn't know if I should adopt a dog, and then God made it very clear that I shouldn't adopt a dog.

Speaker 2: 44:31

It's like so dumb, but it's like Whoa God is directing me and I have an opportunity to trust in him because I can't wait to see what he does next. Like sucks that I didn't get the dog, but it sounds like he's got something better planned.

Speaker 1: 44:46

It's great, you know it's. It's interesting too because I think all of those continue to build your secure attachment with God. Right, because part of it is consistency and repetitive instances or situation of meeting a need. Right, whatever that need was for you. Right, and gosh. It's so cool to hear that, because I think what I've heard more often is that Christians grew up in the church. At this stage of life, they're actually on the other side, where they're deconstructing and almost moving away from God. Did you experience that? I mean, I haven't heard that from what we've been discussing, but did you experience a time where you were deconstructing and maybe wanting nothing to do with God?

Speaker 2: 45:32

I think I'm way too scared of God to even like touch that topic I'm like, so scared of God.

Speaker 1: 45:36

But it was so common, like the last five, 10 years, like I was hearing it all the time, I mean, even even worship leaders and pastors were talking about their deconstruction and they will leave the church and leave their faith and all this stuff. So it was so common. So so yeah, so you said I wouldn't even go there because I was so afraid of even thinking about it.

Speaker 2: 45:57

That could be a couple of reasons. I could just be like willfully ignorant. I could be, you know, being unwise and like unopened, like closed minded of like nope, I'll just take the blind faith, and maybe that's ignorant of me. But A terrified of God. B it might happen.

Speaker 2: 46:11

And C I feel like when you deconstruct God and you start just like finding holes in it, that's just an attack from the enemy, and I do feel like you know God's going to show up stronger because God will win. I mean God. God is the product that sells itself. Like God is the almighty product, and I just think of like a salesman coming up on your door and being like, do you need pest control? Like God is that product where he just like leaves it on your doorstep and like it changed, like he'll sell itself, like it'll work, it'll make changes.

Speaker 2: 46:37

So it's interesting, though, because I've had a friend who, like, has supported the podcast. She's like my childhood friend, and she's like it's so interesting because you're the first person that I've ever known that's like really researched their faith and come out stronger as a Christian, and kind of like what you just said. Like most people, you know, they get to this point and then they start losing faith and I just again maybe I'm ignorant, but I just like all I hear is miracles Like every single person that I talk to has something amazing to say has like a truth revealed that just makes the Bible more credible, that makes God's vision and love for us more aware and more seen. And even beyond the podcast, beyond the research and learning God's work in my life and how it's impacting my community that is not very Christian and then me finding a more Christian community the work of God is just so positive in my life I don't know why I would start doubting it, to be honest.

Speaker 2: 47:35

And the spiritual attacks are real, super real, and this was something that the family warned me about Like hey, you're like preaching God, of course Satan's going to come for you, and he absolutely did. He came in like bouts of confusion and depression and anxiety and like worry and just like corrupting my peace. Um, not like a physical, like I've been grateful that it's not like a physical attachment or, you know, attacker anyway, but definitely these moments of like weakness and confusion and it's really hard to like be on fire for god when you're like I wake up every day like filled with anxiety, like that's pretty tough.

Speaker 1: 48:13

Right.

Speaker 2: 48:15

You just have to like declare more on that.

Speaker 1: 48:17

And would you say that you had those things prior to starting the podcast? You know, it's one of those things where you count the cost right, Count the cost of discipleship. Where you're saying, okay, if I'm going to do this, here's what I'm expecting to see. Do I really want that, or am I happy with how my life is right now? Right, it's one of those things where why would I do that? Well, your love for God is driving that, right. It's driving like I want to know more, and with that comes this price, and some people just aren't willing to pay a certain price for it, right.

Speaker 2: 48:48

Yeah, I mean, you'll probably have way more insight on this, sam, but I feel like, if I'm going to be honest, because I'm the youngest in my family and I have always kind of entrusted my future to others, like that's just like I've got an old, I've got a dad, I've got older siblings, I've just always been taken care of, and so maybe if I'm going to like really psychoanalyze it right now, I think I just like trust God because I'm like, yeah, he's smarter than me, he's got it.

Speaker 2: 49:12

Right now, I think I just like trust God Cause I'm like, yeah, he's smarter than me, he's got it, whereas my friend who kind of made that comment, she had a way different childhood where, like, she was kind of raising herself and so maybe she just approached faith of like, well, I'm in control, do I trust this source because I've got it handled, or you know, she just is more cautious about it, whereas like I'm like, yeah, he's been doing good so far. So, like you know, it's a totally different approach in authority and like where you put your trust, whereas, like for me, I don't question having my future put in the hands of someone else. I've done it my whole life physically. And then, if it comes up to God, my creator, it's like, why would I have better plans than him at this point?

Speaker 2: 49:49

At this point yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:53

Well, that's a really good psychoanalysis and a very good conclusion there. I think I think you have made a lot of great points with it. With that, that's true, it's very true, yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean it really points to our relationship with God and that's what I love about this, like if you know there's always someone in your life that's going to take that primary caregiver type of role For you. It sounds like the spiritual role and primary caregiver in that regard seem to be your sister. Now, you mentioned other siblings. How many of there are you guys?

Speaker 2: 50:27

My other siblings are also amazing Christians. I just that sister is like a therapist, so we would always have deep conversations, so that's just probably why it happened. Uh, she's the oldest girl, but I have an older brother and he's like the artistic, hilarious, amazing older brother. And then there's Maggie, who's the therapist, she's the feeler, she's the guider, she's the intercessor, um, and then my the next sister. I'm the youngest. So then there's a next sister and she's like the powerhouse, the machine. She can do anything she sets her mind to.

Speaker 2: 50:55

Like she's a genius much more logical, much more pragmatic does not fail. It feels like. I mean, you know what I mean she just does everything so well, like literally, so you're the last out of five. I'm sorry.

Speaker 1: 51:09

So you're the last out of five.

Speaker 2: 51:14

I'm the last of four and then, okay, both sisters are married and like I would consider their husbands my brothers, like it's a great big, happy family. But, um, I think just the vulnerable conversations were facilitated by maggie and the family and that just like enabled a safe place, uh, for us to really be able to admit, like I'm struggling with this and I don't know, or this is where I need support right now. And if you don't have an ability to admit that and then have like a safe place for it to be received and then supported rather than like, ooh, that sucks, don't know, like can't help you there, like no, everything was like received with an open heart. So, yeah, a really safe place, and Maggie was really the driver of that.

Speaker 1: 51:51

That's great. Wow, yeah, that's good. You know I'm the oldest of four, so yeah, so right, when you said that and you were talking about, you said the oldest one is usually kind of going through this process of I got to figure it out, I was pressure on me, got to make sure everything's safe for everyone else. I mean, that was literally the way that I felt and that caused an anxious attachment with God, because I feel if I didn't take control of it or if I didn't create the setting for it, then everything was going to fail. So my ability to trust God was contingent on all the things that I did. So I did or performed a lot so that I'd be acceptable in God's eyes.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Right, and my dad wasn't a bad that he just wasn't as emotionally present, but he was a great provider and protector. But he wasn't emotionally present. My mom was present, but when she started working during our teenage years, then that kind of affected the way that we handle things at home, because I was in charge and then you know, 12, 13 years old, how do you handle that Right With, with three younger siblings? So yeah, I mean, again, you hit it right on the nail. So it was, it was a really good analysis.

Speaker 2: 53:05

And I think that it's, you know, a conversation worth having more often of like, recognizing your role in the family. You probably understand birth order a lot more than I do, but I I would agree that, like, my brother definitely takes on the burden of like. Are we good? And you know, self-sacrifice is a way of like, I'm gonna make sure you're good before I make sure I'm good and as, like the younger sister, all you want is for your older brother to be, like, good and happy, but I can't do anything like if you're raised first like I have no ability to fathom what he's going through. As the oldest brother and the oldest sibling who wants what's best for his younger sisters.

Speaker 1: 53:37

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You sound very much so like that trusting of the older or the oldest sibling and so on. That's such a key role. Sounds like you guys have also a great relationship. I have a good one with my siblings, More so when we get older. As we've gotten older, we've appreciated it a lot more. But isn't it interesting how all of this is tying to how we attach to people and how we attach to God? All the secure people that we have in our lives are some reflection of who God is right.

Speaker 1: 54:09

Any type of authority figure. So sometimes when parents are not present, then it's the next people in line which would be spiritual leaders in the church or teachers at school. So it kind of goes through that dynamic. So if it's not your parents, then when you go to church community, it can become leaders. And you have family members so uncles, aunts, it could be that. Or, lastly, teachers and coaches. So just any type of authority figure that you have family members so uncles, aunts, it could be that. Or, lastly, teachers and coaches, so just any type of authority figure that you have a lot of time with. They can be what we would call corrective attachment figures. So, for example, for an unpresent father with his sons or daughters, someone who could take on that role of correcting that attachment is a coach or a teacher. Attachment is a coach or a teacher, so that those any type of programs like a boys and girls club type of thing where there's mentorship involved, like those people, become corrective attachment figures for those children.

Speaker 2: 55:00

Oh my gosh, Wow, I didn't realize that that was the order that it would fall If you didn't have it at home. It would go to church and then from there I'd go to coaches.

Speaker 1: 55:07

Yeah, and it could vary. It's just where are they spending most of their time? So for some parents who aren't as involved, they try to keep their kids busy, so they put them in sports. So who becomes the closest to them? Their coach? Or they're at school all the time and they have to stay after school, so they're there with their teachers. So it's just who do they spend the most time with? And for us, growing up, I mean, it was always around church people. So if we weren't visiting a brother or sister from church, we were at church and we were doing service and we were doing here and playing games, and so most of my upbringing was within that. So my uncle, who was one of the pastors, one of the pastors there, so I was really close with them and their families. So they became kind of like those corrective attachment figures for me as I was growing up.

Speaker 2: 55:51

Wow, that's incredible. Thanks for mapping that out. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1: 55:55

Yeah, and they shape your view. They shape your view of God and you know, for me, again, the biggest thing was having the knowledge of God but not knowing what an actual relationship with him would look like. So I knew stuff about the Bible, I knew like the stories and everything, but I didn't know what it looked like to the stories and everything, but I didn't know what it looked like to actually maintain their relationship, because I didn't have that with my own dad, right, and so I started to develop that as I got older with with other other men, oh so what's the kind of support that you would need or have gotten in the past that like really helped you develop a secure attachment with God?

Speaker 2: 56:35

Go from like secure.

Speaker 1: 56:37

So, honestly, the one that helped me the most was when it came to to Liberty for grad school, my very first professor. So I was first, first semester of grad school professor. So I was first semester of grad school and one of my professors. About halfway through the semester, I mean, I would speak up in class and give a couple of comments here and there and ask questions, and halfway through the semester he asked me to be his GSA graduate student assistant for the following semester. And I was just shocked because I needed a job. I wasn't working at the time, so I had to take out a loan for that first semester and I was looking for a job, praying about it. And here's this guy, you know, who thinks that I can be a benefit to him and I'm just, you know, excited about it. So I say yes, and you know, let's do it, and I become his GSA.

Speaker 1: 57:23

And through that whole process he mentored me and he I was able to share things with him little by little, like about my past, about my background, and he just heard me out. And that's never what I heard. I always had some piece of advice that was given to me and I was almost frustrated that he didn't give me advice, he just listened. He listened, asked me more questions and that made me feel at ease, like okay. So maybe it is okay for me to bring stuff to God and maybe this is how he responds, because, you see, in the Psalms these you know they're sharing their hearts with God, they're sharing their fears and their doubts and everything, and God's not responding harshly to them Right Now with Job.

Speaker 1: 58:04

You know, I think you did an episode of that with Job and how his attitude was. But that wasn't my attitude. I was fearful of sharing my sins and doubts and fears that I had. But when I shared it with that professor who became a mentor and now we're really close friends that changed my view of God. God used this man in my life to help me understand him in a different light, that he is gracious, that he is patient, that he is kind and willing to listen and is not always looking for correction.

Speaker 1: 58:38

And everything that I did in my mind was wrong, like it could have been better. I could have done better, right, so it was kind of that aspect, but I didn't feel that way around. My professor and I was scared about that. I was like this is weird. But the more we spent time together he was correcting in a sense my attachment to god and my attachment to people, because I now start to learn that true friendship has space for both. It has space for truth and it has space for grace. So those two things kind of was very powerful in that friendship relationship.

Speaker 2: 59:13

Yeah, oh, my gosh. I truly like the power of therapy and friendships and safe places. I was curious you know, like well, what gave you the courage to be able to open up and admit all of those things, for them to be well-received. But it sounds like just being able to know from a historical experience with this person that it was consistently going to be received well. So you just over time develop a trust with it.

Speaker 1: 59:33

But I imagine you know that first couple sharings were terrifying.

Speaker 1: 59:37

Oh yeah, it was in, like it was little by little, like the smallest sin you could share, right. And then you're like how did he respond to that? Okay, that wasn't too bad. Then the next one you slowly work your way up, but he was just such a safe presence, right, and very nonjudgmental, and just kind of listened and he wanted to understand more, like what was actually going on.

Speaker 1: 59:56

Similar to kind of what you were sharing is that I think we all just wanted to be heard and understood, not necessarily that our sin would be accepted, like we know that it's going to carry its consequence. But who do I share this with? Because am I the only one who experiences this type of sin or doubt? And you realize, as you talk to more people I'm sure you've found that that we're all kind of struggling through similar situations. Just one has an area over here, one has another over here, and we're able to kind of empathize with that pain, but we also encourage each other towards godliness, right Towards, becoming more like Christ. So that's the importance of that community piece there. And he did do a good job of balancing those two things out Truth and also grace.

Speaker 2: 1:00:44

I do, who does?

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

Oh, my professor did.

Speaker 2: 1:00:48

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I was like I don't think I do that no it sounds like he did that perfectly, and I think it is just this like like, once we get over this hurdle of like, okay, I have a sin that I'm struggling with and I want to admit it to this person, and they're either going to judge me or they're going to tell me what to do, or they're going to say I don't know. But I see it and I struggle with that too, and I think it's like the slow realization that a lot of people are the latter, a lot of people are like dude, I'm struggling with that too, and I still don't know what to do. And then you feel seen and heard, even if you don't have the answer. It's like, okay, we are all living this human experience and trying to do our best.

Speaker 1: 1:01:21

And.

Speaker 2: 1:01:23

Dr Robert Miller. I'll share this because he shared on my podcast, so obviously he's okay talking about it. But he was talking about how, like when he was an adult, he was really struggling with like self-loathing and like hating himself. And one of his friends was like dude, you have to get over this. This is not a good thing. And he's like why, you know, it's a, it's a victimless crime, like it's okay, like, admit it to a friend, but he still was like kind of pushing it off, minimizing this thing.

Speaker 2: 1:01:53

He didn't really see why it was a big deal that he hated himself. What was the point of solving it? This was just a thing that he felt about himself. And then when he was like he's like I was raking leaves, he's like the dumbest thing ever, like it wasn't even a holy moment but any amount of holy moment, but he's raking leaves, praying to God, and he was like God, why is like, what's the big deal? Like, why does it matter if I hate myself? And God like very clearly spoke to him Like this was one of those moments, uh, saying it's because you hate the thing that I love. And he's like, oh, okay, uh, but I, I think it is just like that. That's a huge God moment, just like the fact that God spoke to him, the fact that God revealed that to him. That really, really impacted him and I'm so glad he shared that. But I do think that, like ability for him to admit it and talk about it and address it, took him leaps and bounds in his faith.

Speaker 1: 1:02:40

Yeah, no, it does. It does you know? It took me back to kind of Genesis. You know what was the first thing that Adam and Eve did after they found out that they had sinned? They run and hide right and they cover themselves, and it's a reminder of that's exactly what we do.

Speaker 1: 1:02:56

Right, and that is the effect or the impact of sin is that it moves us to hide from God as opposed to move towards him. And I always talk about that with attachment. It's what is that sin, that falling or that failure or that perception of yourself? Where does it take you? And for some, it's like it pushes me towards God, like I have to go and confess and I have to go and pray to him right away because I can't deal with it. For others, oh, it pushes me towards this addiction. Okay, so how do you? How to remove that? There's shame involved there, right? Because the belief is that, because I have this or because I struggled with this, god doesn't want me or doesn't love me, and that doesn't line up with with biblical truth. Right, god came out into the garden and started to take them out. Where are you Right? So he seeks reconciliation, he seeks that attachment, even though we think that he doesn't Right.

Speaker 2: 1:03:51

So and isn't that so terrifying.

Speaker 1: 1:03:53

Yes yes it really is and and but it's something that I just never experienced, that like it was discipline. Actually, my dad did start doing that a little bit once I hit teenagers like we were disciplined if we did something wrong, but then he'd come in a little bit later and he'd say hey, do you know why? Why that happened? You don't know that. I still love you. So there was, there was the repair afterwards. Right Attachment ruptures are created when there is distance and no reconciliation. Because if that becomes the pattern, what does that person begin to believe? You're not safe, you're not trustworthy. But if there's reconciliation after the rupture, then that reestablishes the secure attachment, because we want to see consistency with repair.

Speaker 2: 1:04:39

Yeah, I remember Justin Gerhardt on one of our episodes. He was saying he's like God wants to shine a flashlight in your soul and he wants to find the parts of you that you are hiding and bring them to light. And not in a shameful let's expose it so everyone can see kind of way, but in a way of like let's bring to surface what you're struggling with. I want to find it so I can help you through it. And that was like a lesson he was teaching his daughter of like what you did is wrong, but let's talk about it so we can work through it.

Speaker 2: 1:05:06

And I remember when he was saying that to me on the podcast, I was struggling with something that I was hiding and I was unwilling to talk about because it was like a sense of like, shame and struggle. And I was like I'll just like again that spiritual attack of like it'll be fine, I'll go through it. And I just felt like God was like I'm ready with my flashlight to walk you through this, but you have to show me where it is. And I was so unwilling to hand it to God. And so he was telling me this I'm like, oh yeah, really, that's how it works.

Speaker 1: 1:05:33

But you're right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:35

Who on this earth does that in such a loving way? We want to know the dirt about every celebrity and every like gossipy thing, at least. Like maybe I do, I don't know, I really struggle with gossiping of like. Let's talk about it and see how like. Oh, they do that. I don't do that, so I must be better. Like we want to bring and shine that flashlight on the things to like really set ourselves apart from like. Well, that's bad and I don't do that. So I'm good. And God wants to say like let's talk about it you deeper and heal you through that. I mean that just it's so rare it feels that you have a friend on earth that does that.

Speaker 1: 1:06:14

Yeah, yeah, I remember there being a quote similar to what you said there. Like we should, we should see our sin as greater than our neighbors, because that gives us the ability to empathize with our neighbors who are struggling. Right, because the opposite, where my neighbor's sin is greater than mine, that makes us prideful and therefore we can't address sin in our lives.

Speaker 1: 1:06:36

But, we point the direction elsewhere, so that the flashlight, as you're mentioning, is not on us but on other people's dark places. So that's a big principle and it can be a double-edged sword where, if you make your sin bigger than your neighbor's, yes, it gives you the humility to understand that, okay, you know my sin is great, right, but then we have to also think but my God is greater than this and that's why I can go to him with this sin. But all that is based off of that, that secure attachment that we're able to establish with God.

Speaker 2: 1:07:12

Is it? Do you think possible to have like an anxious attachment or avoidant attachment in like relationships with your partner but have a secure attachment with God, or do you think both of them are happening at the same time, Like if you have a secure attachment then it'll happen both ways or avoidant, both ways?

Speaker 1: 1:07:27

No, because because people, certain people, would trigger a specific type of attachment, right so there's some people who, because of a previous relationship or something in your past, that even though you might be secure in your I don't know you with your best friend or you with your sister, that might be a secure attachment and your secure attachment with God even. But there are some people that when they kind of enter into your life and they create some anxiety, right so your attachment to that person might be anxious or avoidant, but that doesn't mean that because you have that type of attachment with them means that you're going to have that attachment with God.

Speaker 2: 1:08:05

Yeah, that makes total sense.

Speaker 1: 1:08:07

That feels like a dumb question now. No, no, because it's true, though, because we think that if I have a anxious attachment with God, I'm going to have anxious attachment with people. That's not true. You can have an anxious attachment with God and actually have a secure attachment with other people because of the way that they make you feel, of the consistency, right, but it's where does that relationship come from? And going back to your point of everything comes from God. If I see that relationship as something from God, then I start to see God as someone who is a secure base because he's provided for me, someone that is a secure base for me, right so?

Speaker 2: 1:08:44

we can make that connection there. That's good.

Speaker 1: 1:08:48

So yeah, so I think that is something that we often do think about. If I have a secure relationship with God I've been praying, I've been reading my Bible, I have community, like I have a relationship with God why can't I have this relationship over here? Well, because they're not a safe, secure person, like God is right. Or, you know, I've really been struggling in my relationship with God, but I have a relationship with this person over here and it's a cure. Why can't I transfer this over to my relationship with God? Well?

Speaker 1: 1:09:12

maybe there's something else going on, you know.

Speaker 2: 1:09:16

Like you're not fully trusting God the way you're fully trusting that other person.

Speaker 1: 1:09:19

Exactly, that's exactly right.

Speaker 2: 1:09:21

Oh my gosh, this is really shining that flashlight, Sam.

Speaker 1: 1:09:25

Oh yeah, this is good, this is good, it's good, yeah. So so, cassidy, we get to the end of our episode here. Are there anything? Is there anything that you would like to share with others? You, you've done a really great job of sharing your testimony and I really appreciate that. And what is a lesson or two that you've taken, you know, from your relationship with with Christ? Um, that you'd like to for others to share? Maybe others who have been in your situation or have your background or your story? Uh, what is one or two things that you would say, oh, let's do it this way. What are one or two things that you would share with younger cast?

Speaker 2: 1:10:07

Oh, this is gonna make me cry. Oh my gosh, I would. I would probably share with younger cast. I mean younger cast like really struggled with, like knowing she was, like loved and seen, and like fighting for her own sense of power. Like, oh, younger cast lacked confidence, she didn't know herself, she didn't know.

Speaker 2: 1:10:32

Oh my gosh, I got confidence like a couple years ago. Before that I was all pretending I think, um, I think like, do not stop seeking. I think persistence is absolutely key, because that's what got me here is like, do not give up. Like it is worth the fight of saying I don't know and being able to admit that I think it's being persistent and then being vulnerable about I'm struggling with this to a point where I have to be persistent Like I want God and I'm not doing it well, so it's taking a long time. It's okay to admit that and it's actually going to get you closer to the finish line. Not that I've reached the finish line at any point, but the finish line of like, yes, I finally want God. Like I remember I started ordering Christian merch when I first got into the podcast.

Speaker 2: 1:11:18

I was like I got a sweatshirt that was like living proof of a loving God and I would never wear Christian wear in front of my friends. That seemed lame. And I remember like, right when I started the podcast, I like found the sweatshirt and I was like this is the coolest sweatshirt I've ever seen. I cannot wait to wear this hoodie in public, at the airport, at these parties, at the beach. And I remember being like I have never thought that thought before. I feel like I'm finally like it's clicking, like I finally want God and that is just something I've wanted for so long. It's worth the fight. And like God is going to blow your doors off, like whatever you think you want right now, like God has something so much better planned in an unfathomable way. You'll never be able to see it coming, you'll never be able to predict how it happens, you'll never be able to explain it, but it's worth the fight to stay persistent If you don't know God or want God. But you're a little bit curious, you're a little bit confused. Keep asking, keep searching, and being vulnerable is very, very powerful.

Speaker 2: 1:12:16

I think learning the power of vulnerability was something that a friend taught me, and he wasn't even Christian, but he said the strongest thing you could ever do is be vulnerable. And I don't know if this was explicitly said in my household, but I definitely was like, do not give people ammo to use against you. Vulnerability is like the dumbest way, but it's like that's how people hurt you is when you admit what's going to hurt you. And I had a friend just like really teach me that vulnerability and being able to be like, hey, I'm really struggling right now. Could you be there for me? Hey, I actually like I'm struggling in this way, whatever it might be, that's really hard and it actually creates strength and connections a lot faster than pretending like they don't exist. And I think being vulnerable of like, yeah, having a sister that I could say like I'm really struggling with, like sex before marriage, like what do I do? And she's like, yeah, I get it. This is why you shouldn't. This is like God sees that God's want something so much more for you.

Speaker 2: 1:13:07

So I also would tell younger cast like the things that you think are filling you up are actual change. That are chains, chains that are bounding you, the, the drugs and the drinking and the sex you think it's freeing you, but it's not. It's weighing you down. It is putting you behind. You think it makes you look cool and powerful and experienced, but it's not. That is not the type of experience and power that you want. It does not fill your cup, it empties it, and seeing the riches that God provides instead, when you do align with the fruits of the spirit, are so much more bountiful it's overflowing my cup. It's actual joy. It's lasting joy. It's peace that helps you recover and that absolutely outbeats a hangover. It absolutely outbeats a really cool story for that one night that it exists. Like I kind of, like you said, like it sounds freeing, it is freeing. I have so much peace. Like I don't. I used to have plans and I just know that they're not going to measure up to what God has planned. So like, why bother?

Speaker 1: 1:14:05

Yeah, is that like a 180 for you?

Speaker 2: 1:14:10

Yeah, I do. I feel like in high school my friend he's like I just feel like there's so many chains wrapped around you right now. Cass and I was like, well, I like those chains keep them on, Like I couldn't even fathom like letting go of like the pleasures that I had. And now I'm like, oh God has. And I think it's interesting to point out that I think a lot of early Christians and myself is like well, I don't want to go Christian because I have to give up these things.

Speaker 2: 1:14:35

I have to give up and sacrifice the things that I enjoy in order to fit within the mold of what God wants me to be, and the crazy thing about God is that he changes your heart to no longer want them is like my heart posture has shifted 180 of like, oh, I got to give up drinking or drugs or whatever.

Speaker 2: 1:14:55

And I'm like, oh, I don't even want to do that. Like giving up drinking, I I don't, I'm not fully sober, but like there was about the summer where I was fully sober and it was amazing I didn't want to go out, I didn't crave going out. It was like, oh, I'm so lame. I'm like no, God has changed my heart that I want things that like give me good rest and make me feel good Saturday morning. Like I've changed. So you're not ever going to like leave the things behind and miss them in your distant Christian memories. Like, no, you're going to be a Christian. That's like I don't even want those things. They're unattractive, they're unappealing. I don't hunger for them. Like I hunger for something else that actually fills my cup yeah, so I think that's like the don't worry about it aspect of becoming christian.

Speaker 2: 1:15:37

Like it'll work out, because god literally changes your heart posture on how you feel about sin your heart posture, your desires increase, your desires for him increase and desire for everything else decreases.

Speaker 1: 1:15:49

It's yeah, it's such a powerful thing For those who have had like a bad past in growing up in the church. I think they often see it that way, where not that they're irredeemable. They may feel that way like oh no, because of everything they've done, I'm not going to be able to reestablish this relationship with God. But actually that's a big part of their testimony, right, and you know it creates such a stark contrast that it gives other people hope that if they're gone through that and they're where you are at today, that they can be there today as well.

Speaker 2: 1:16:27

Yeah, if you're like at rock bottom, like your testimony's gonna be so good, you really add to that testimony, right? It's got to come through. If you seek him, you just have to knock on, he'll answer the door absolutely.

Speaker 1: 1:16:40

I think those are great three. I think you get about three tips for for young cast and for the audience, so I hope so yeah I hope so.

Speaker 2: 1:16:48

I like all the glory to God. I mean everything that's happened. I'm just so thankful to be a part of it. I mean to like very clearly, like, oh, god wants me to do this. I'm honored. I mean I don't want really people to know my name and I think I've definitely struggled with, like, how big do I get my brand, all the things that were taught in, like the internet of today, but I'm just grateful that, like, I get to be a part of this, that I get to have conversations that lead me on other people's podcasts, that, like we get to like celebrate and know that our heart posture has changed. Like that is a gift and I'm just glad to be a part of it.

Speaker 1: 1:17:19

Absolutely. Thank you so much for for coming on the show. And for those who are tuning in, cass's podcast is the Biblically Speaking Podcast and she interviews a lot of great theologians and Bible scholars and talks about all things related to God and the Bible.

Speaker 2: 1:17:36

Yeah, check it out on Apple and Spotify and we're on Instagram called the Biblically Speaking Podcast, or this is Biblically Speaking, is the handle. It's on TikTok, it's on YouTube, it's on Facebook, I think. I mean, it might be on my personal Facebook at this point, but yeah, we just ask questions. We ask dumb questions because I'm curious and I'm confused because this is so much deeper than you think it is. It's not just all the books of the Bible, it's everything ever is connected to God.

Speaker 1: 1:18:03

Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show, yeah absolutely, I'm looking forward to coming on as well.

Speaker 2: 1:18:07

Yeah, talk soon.

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

Thank you, cass. See you the show.

Speaker 2: 1:18:10

Yeah, absolutely, I'm looking forward to coming on as well. Yeah, talk soon. All right, thank you guys, see you.